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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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 Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Long-bladed rondel daggers |
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I'm looking for information, particularly pictorial representations and source info, on long-bladed rondel daggers extending past an 18" blade length. I'm intrigued by sword-length rondel daggers that have blades extending 24" or more.
What examples exist in museums? Where are they?
Who carried these long examples and in what role were they used?
When were they used? Was there a period of time where they were more common than other periods?
What depictions in art are there of these very long-bladed rondel daggers?
And one specific question: Where rondel daggers, long or otherwise, commonly used by archers?
Thank you.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I can only give you a partial answer, but they were definately seen in 15th century fencing manuscripts. Codex Wallerstein shows some rather large daggers, including some "half-sword" techniques with them, which certainly makes more sense with a larger blade than a shorter one.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bill
please bear in mind that proportions in CW are not exactly accurate 
Nathan, there is a quite long (though probably not 18" or more) roundel dagger in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. I'm going there tomorrow, I'llt ry to get you a picture of it.
I also know an early XVIth century illustration depicting a very long roundel dagger : http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElementNum...mp;Param=C (the link might not work)
It's from ms. Fr. 599 at the Bibliothèque nationale de France, Folio : 63v, the vengeance of Chiomara, from Boccace, de mulieribus claris
Still used as a regular dagger, though.
Cheers
Fab
PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fabrice Cognot wrote: | | please bear in mind that proportions in CW are not exactly accurate |
I'll certainly accept that the proportions are far from accurate, but the fact that they are shown to be rather large, and that there are so many techniques that involve grabbing the blade, seems to suggest to me that we're probably talking about something bigger than a typical steak knife. Talhoffer's 1467 manuscript also shows a lot of these techniques, and in those drawings the dagger appears to be at least the size of a forearm and hand put together. While we'll never know for sure if those illustrations are exactly accurate or not, since larger daggers did indeed exist, and there are so many techniques that seem to be optimized for a larger weapon rather than a short one, I'm inclined to believe that this is what is being depicted. Naturally, such techniques can still be adapted with a smaller weapon, though.
I know Eric McHugh had once made a very large rondel that was inspired by period originals. Maybe he's a person to ask about this.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | there are so many techniques that involve grabbing the blade |
Well, so are there in Fiore and many other period sources. The daggers in Fiore do not appear to be extremely long.
Vadi gives the 'perfect' dimensions for the dagger, with the point reaching slightly past the elbow when you hold the dagger against your forearm.
Also, note that on a particular technique, CW states that it is better performed with a longer dagger.
Not that I ever meant the typical rondel dagger was the length of a steack knife 
PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Nathan,
J.H. Hefner-Alteneck shows a drawing of what may be considered a "sword-sized" rondel dagger in a plate labelled "Daggers and Swords 1460-1500" in his Medieval Arms and Armor: A Pictorial Archive. Unfortunately, he doesn't give dimensions or even list a source, but he shows it alongside a couple of more modestly-sized daggers. It's blade is certainly long compared to the grip.
The grip of this "sword-dagger" has a rudimentary rondel as a guard, and only a "cap" for a pommel. He drew the blade in the same way that he drew a three-sided dagger blade, but he doesn't specify if this larger object was three-sided as well (the shading is different from that of the two-sided dagger shown on the same plate). The author stated that this weapon played a large role in the knight's arsenal, and was used more in skirmishes than battles. He stated that the simple grip (which appears cylindrical in the drawing) is about an eighth of the blade. If the grip was 4 inches, that would make the blade roughly 32 inches! He also stated that the weapon was worn perpendicular to the body at the front, but sometimes at the right side.
I've seen sword-sized (or almost sword-sized) baselard daggers worn perpendicular in the front in English brasses. They can be found on the brasses of wealthy civilians. One is on the brass of John Fortey, 1458, in Northleach. Fortey wears his large baselard hanging from the centre of his belt. Another is on the brass of an unknown civilian of circa 1370 in Shottesbroke (here the large dagger or small sword is worn slightly offset to the left). These aren't rondels, but they can give you an idea of how large rondels may have been worn. (Both are seen in Henry Trivick's The Picture Book of Brasses in Gilt.)
I hoped this helped! I'll dig around a bit more and see what I can come up with!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
Last edited by Richard Fay on Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Bill, I owned Eric's rondel for a while and passed it on to Nathan. What he told me if I rememeber correctly was that the blade was based on one in the Museum of London that Peter had done drawings of and that Peter had examined rondel specimines(sp) nearly as long as a sword. Maybe Eric can flesh this out more.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan, that is something Eric mentioned as his idea for the rondel you have now.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | Thanks for the responses so far. I'm hoping more will chime in with additional details.
One question that might have been missed by many is:
Where rondel daggers, long or otherwise, commonly used by archers? |
Here's wnat the Burgundian ordinances of 1471 state about the archer :
| Quote: | | L’archer sera monté sur un cheval de 10 écus au moins, habillé d’une jaque à haut collet tenant lieu de gorgerin, avec bonnes manches ; il portera une cotte de mailles ou paletot de haubergerie dessous cette jaque qui sera de 12 toiles au moins dont 3 de toile cirée et 9 de toile commune. Il aura pour garantir sa tête une bonne salade sans visière ; il sera armé en outre d’un arc solide, d’une trousse pouvant contenir 2 douzaines et demie de flèches, d’une longue épée à deux mains, d’une dague tranchant des deux côtés et longue d’un pied et demi. |
A two-edged dagger [litt. a dagger cutting on both edges] and a foot -and-a-half long.
PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a nice illustration. The text says
| Quote: | | Another extract from the same scene as the besiegers and crossbowmen. These archers wear brigandines, with the rivets clearly visible, mail shirts and Italian-style sallets. One has no armour on his legs, a common trend at this time, while the other two have varying degrees of protection on their legs. I believe the archer to the rear to be rather anachronistic, as he has arms and legs fully encased in plate, which is most unlikely for an archer, if only for practicality in shooting. None of the archers wear bracers. They all have their arrows on the side of the bow that is the same as the hand they hold it with, as with most western archers. Two are right-handed, one left. As was the norm, their arrows are kept either stuffed through the belt or placed on/into the ground (we hear of this at Agincourt). The archer to the right has a standard arming sword, worn in a normal way, while the man on the left has what could be a large baselard. These short swords were usually worn hung in the middle of the belt, either at the back or on the front, in front of the groin. |
I think the long dagger looks very much like a rondel (and not so much a baselard).
Gordon
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional
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This is a standard topic