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Grayson C.
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 Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: Ritter and Hospitaller blades? |
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Small question here:
I've heard recently that the Albion Ritter and Hospitaller share the same or very similar blades. Is this true? if so, do they handle similarly? The reason why I ask is that I am planning on buying this type of sword, but they are $80 appart. If they are both about that same I'd have to go with the Hospitaller, even though I'd slightly prefer a cocked hat pommel.
Thanks!!
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Travis Canaday
Location: Overland Park, Kansas Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Grayson,
I believe they do have same blade. Even with the same blade, they probably handle a bit different because of the different hilt components. Maybe someone who has handled them both can comment, but if not, give Mike at Albion a call and ask him.
I like those "cocked hat" pommels too. I say if you want the Ritter... get it. What's 80 bucks if you are already spending several hundered? And then you have the sword you really want! But that's just me talking.
Travis
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Grayson C.
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Travis Canaday wrote: | | What's 80 bucks if you are already spending several hundered? And then you have the sword you really want! But that's just me talking. |
$80 is quite a lot in my budget sadly  .
Contacting Mike would be a good idea, I'll do that if I don't get any answers here. On a side note, how would hilt furniture vary the handling of a sword? I've always been under the presumption, if apparently erronious, that handling came from the blade and point of balance. If I'm wrong, I'd be eccstatic to learn more about this. Feel free to post on this if you'd like.
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Jason Dingledine
Location: Aurora, Ohio Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Grayson C. wrote: | | Travis Canaday wrote: | | What's 80 bucks if you are already spending several hundered? And then you have the sword you really want! But that's just me talking. |
$80 is quite a lot in my budget sadly .
Contacting Mike would be a good idea, I'll do that if I don't get any answers here. On a side note, how would hilt furniture vary the handling of a sword? I've always been under the presumption, if apparently erronious, that handling came from the blade and point of balance. If I'm wrong, I'd be eccstatic to learn more about this. Feel free to post on this if you'd like. |
These swords do share the exact same blade, and the handling differences are noticable, although not extreme. The differences in handling are due to the different weights of the individual hilt components, and their respective distribution of mass.
Two pommels of the exact same weight, but different shapes will have an altering affect (though subtle) on the handling of the blade. It is a matter of where the mass is centered along the blade, and how this affects the weight distribution (evenly centered in a disc/wheel pommel, or pushed to the end as in a scent-stopper), and the vibration characteristics of the fully mounted blade. Even slight differences in grip length stemming from pommel shapes can affect this.
More or less mass in the guard will have a much smaller affect, but it is still there, and if the guard curves upward, or outward towards the blade, this will also affect things in a minor way.
Jason Dingledine
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Grayson C. wrote: | | Contacting Mike would be a good idea, I'll do that if I don't get any answers here. |
I'm not sure if there's a Hospitaller built and at the shop. I own the Ritter, so if there is, I'll be glad to do a little side-by-side. If I do manage that, I'll post my thoughts.
There will be a difference in handling between the swords, though how significant, I am not sure. Visually, of course, the two swords are very different. Both the guard and cocked-hat pommel are quite a bit more "complex" than the more plain fittings on the Hospitaller - probably moreso than is apparent on the main Next Gen swords page. Looking at the pics on their respective pages will give a better impression. It's a matter of personal preference, but personally, visually, the Ritter is quite an interesting piece. That's not saying the Hospitaller isn't a nice sword...
| Greyson C. wrote: | | On a side note, how would hilt furniture vary the handling of a sword? I've always been under the presumption, if apparently erronious, that handling came from the blade and point of balance. If I'm wrong, I'd be eccstatic to learn more about this. Feel free to post on this if you'd like. |
The blade and the hilt components work in concert. You can do an interesting experiment with a lump of modeling clay. Take your sword, get a feel for it, then stick a 1" ball of clay on the pommel and feel the difference. While that seems like a big lump, steel is much more dense. It is quite amazing how much the fittings (moreso the pommel, but the guard as well) play into the handling. That said, you won't be turning a blade such as is on the Baron into an Earl by changing the fittings.
Definitely an experiment worth doing - easier to evoke that "ah-ha!" understanding that way than via a written post.
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Brian M
Location: Austin, TX Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree -- if you really want the Ritter over the Hospitaller -- find a way to save up the extra $80, even if it means delaying gratification a little longer. You may not buy another sword for a while, so get the one that is going to give you the greatest satisfaction. The $80 will seem trivial after you have it.
Brian M
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Grayson C.
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| Posted: Sun 26 Nov, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Aaron, I'd be grateful if you did 
It's not so much that I want the ritter more than the hospitaller. It's more that I would ever so slghtly prefer the cocked hat pommel as it seems to have a bit more personality to it.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 26 Nov, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Grayson C. wrote: | | Thank you Aaron, I'd be grateful if you did |
Managed to do that, albeit briefly, this afternoon. Dry handling only, of course - no cutting.
My impression is that the two handle quite similarly. There is a difference, but not enough that I could really even quantify it. This surprised me a bit, as I expected a more striking contrast. It may have been any number of contributing factors - grip shape, mass distribution of hilt components, my personal grip or flow through a maneuver... This is not the only occurence of multiple swords sharing a blade - the Knight, Laird, and Caithness all have the same XII blade. The difference is actually quite noticeable comparing these three.
For what it's worth, I love my Ritter. It's a stand-out in my collection because of the pommel. It feels wonderful in hand. It cuts like mad. It's dressed in oxblood.
| Grayson C. wrote: | | It's not so much that I want the ritter more than the hospitaller. It's more that I would ever so slghtly prefer the cocked hat pommel as it seems to have a bit more personality to it. |
Side by side, the Ritter will get more attention - whether people like the pommel or not, it is just more interesting in my opinion. Either sword is a great representative piece from that period in history. Both will handle and cut very well. Either would find a good home with you, I'm certain. Bottom line is this - after handling both side by side, I can offer you little other than "eh... you choose...". They're both sweet. I know the situation of limited funds - I hate it, but deal with it. It means that the few toys I get now need to be THE toys I want. Think on it. If the Ritter keeps calling to you, you might want to save a little bit longer. I don't know if it'd help at all, but Albion does have a payment plan, and Mike's great to work with...
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 26 Nov, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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I can only echo what Aaron has said about the Ritter. It's an unusual sword to the modern eye, but very interesting and it grows on you aesthetically. I like it very much myself. It's handling qualities are a bit surprising as well. It's a far more agile sword than you'd suspect when looking at it. I'd hold out for that one if I were you.
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David Stokes
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| Posted: Sun 26 Nov, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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I too bought a Ritter and find it to be one of the best handling out of the next Gens...
its a hellava cutter...
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi Grayson,
I think the Hospitaller looks really great in it's austere beauty. I also think that the Ritter looks great but I have a sense that the Hospitaller has more of a historical precedent. I can think of several swords of the 12th c. that share a type 1 guard and disc pommel.
The Ritter, Peter has stated, is based on a group of Germanic swords of the 13th c. though the Ritter has a smaller blade than these.
Also when looking at the pommel of the Ritter I find myself questioning whether cocked hat pommels in period had such a strong and defined shape as that on the Ritter. Looking at the historical specimen- the pommels don't look quite so bold and defined. I am no expert of any kind and this may be due to the effect of errosion on the pommels but this is a question for me. I know that Patrick Barta has mad a swrod with a cocked hat pommel with a more rounded/blended character.
The Hospitaller could be found at the height of feudalism and during the First Crusade while the Ritter post-dates this period. But take my sentiments for what they are as my interest in A&A is closely tied to the millitary and non-millitary history of the period, also I named the Hospitaller.
Jeremy
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Ritter, Peter has stated, is based on a group of Germanic swords of the 13th c. though the Ritter has a smaller blade than these. |
From Albions Ritter page..............
| Quote: | | Also when looking at the pommel of the Ritter I find myself questioning whether cocked hat pommels in period had such a strong and defined shape as that on the Ritter. Looking at the historical specimen- the pommels don't look quite so bold and defined. I am no expert of any kind and this may be due to the effect of errosion on the pommels but this is a question for me. |
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Hmm. looking at the photo of the original and the Ritter pommel- perhaps the shape is consistent. I still am inclined to ask if a more rounded shape is called for- especially on the "face" of the Ritter pommel.
I think that Albion did an excellent job on the disc pommel of my Norman. It has a nice organic feel to it- and I suspect this may exist too for the Ritter if handled in person- which I have not done.
If I were in your position I would go for the archtypical Hospitaller as a mainstay of the collection. It depends how you want to build your collection- some folks desire the typical and some the exotic. Me- i'll first get the typical- then later get the more spectific examples. I think it's also improtant to note that what we think of as the typical historically may in fact not be- for example during the period 1050-1175 the brazil nut and tea cozy pommels which many think of as more specialized and original shapes would seem, based on period examples, to have outnumbered the disc and wheel pommel family which many think of as quite plain and normative.
Each person decides what to buy based on what they want in a collection. I wonder, does anyone out there buy one sword and go "okay now I have the sword I wanted- I'm done."  Now that would be something!
Jeremy
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
I wonder, does anyone out there buy one sword and go "okay now I have the sword I wanted- I'm done." Now that would be something!
Jeremy |
I expect lots of people do so. The sample of opinions we are exposed to on this and similar websites is necessarily biased towards collecting and, therefore, repetitive purchase. If you go out to find the Conan sword, because you saw the films and thought it would look good on the wall, you may well stop there. Similarly for a souvenir sword. Not all items have to be the start of a collection. Lack of cash or space may also play a large part.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I still am inclined to ask if a more rounded shape is called for- especially on the "face" of the Ritter pommel. |
It is rounded and a bit convex, hardly flat, as shown in this photo.
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Katie Neal
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: not to late i hope |
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Hi...
if you really like the ritter style sword. check out armart. its 418$
http://www.armart.antiquanova.com/
right now they have these sword ready to send.
i think up armart is top quaility 2.
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Grayson C.
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I checked out armart. That blade was nice but the opmmel seemed too...off. Thanks for the try though Katie.
I think I'm going with the ritter, thoguh $80.will be a pain to raise. I have a deal with my parents that I have to equal the amount into my college fund ($1400 plus double shipping) so money is quite tight here. I've seen some convincing arguments here that I need to buy a sword that I'd be absolutely happy, so I don't waste any money. Jeremy, I see what you mean about the hospitaller being the centerpiece of my collection, but I probably won't buy another sword after this for a while at least. I tend to lean more toward the exotic without going into absurdity (i.e. final fantasy, etc.). I have a passion for straight european blades, but I like them to have a certain flair.
Aaron, thanks for the review, I grateful for the time you took to help me!
Thanks for everyone's help.
EDIT: Aaron, I just searched up the ritter in the forum history - I saw yours and was very impressed. you pictures have led me to solidly say that I want one 
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Grayson C.
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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on a similar note:
What color grip would be historically accurate and look best on the Ritter?
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Ross Tippin
Location: Philadelphia Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: not to late i hope |
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| Katie Neal wrote: | Hi...
if you really like the ritter style sword. check out armart. its 418$
http://www.armart.antiquanova.com/
right now they have these sword ready to send.
i think up armart is top quaility 2. |
I've had dealings with Armart and my experiences have not been good. A long time ago I ordered three swords from them (a shamshir, a cavalry palache, and a 18th Century Prussian cavalry saber). After an extraordinarily long wait, they delivered the shamshir and palache, but the cavalry saber was never sent and Pavel Neumann never responded to my e-mails enquiring about it (the order was placed in October of 2001, so I think I can write-off the possibility of Armart ever honoring the order). The actual quality of the swords I received was good (particularly the shamshir), but based on this experience I would certainly never order anything else from them again and and I feel it is incumbent upon me to warn others of my experience. The whole experience has soured me on dealing with non-US based businesses because of difficulties in obtaining legal satisfaction in the case of fraud or non-performance with businesses situated in foreign countries.
Ross Tippin
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Nathan Robinson
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