myArmoury.com - Introducing... The Liechtenauer

Aaron Schnatterly

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Posts: 1,244 Location: New Glarus, WI

Tue 21 Nov, 2006 9:54 am

Pamela Muir wrote:

Hi Aaron, thanks for letting go. :D

Uh huh... :wtf:

Pamela Muir wrote:

I have a safety question. How flexible is it in the thrust?

This is going to be somewhat hard to describe without actually feeling it. I'll try, though, and you can let us know how close I came here soon...

The blade isn't whippy in that it will thrust quite accurately. The last third of the blade is quite flexible, however. If you push the blade point to the floor, it'll bend 45 - 90 degrees in a nice curve through this area without tremendous force. Of course, practicing with safety in mind (and appropriate protective equipment when/if necessary) is of paramount importance. We haven't had any real concern over the thrust except to the unprotected face, and that can be scary with even a pool noodle. As such, we do always practice to miss in the thrust - an unfortunate training artifact, but we do actually like each other, so we tend to play a little nice in the sandbox.

Hopefully that gives some indication...

Had we been outfitted as you usually are (mask, gaunts, gambeson, possibly a gorget), at least a couple of us would be more than comfortable in stepping things up a notch or two - again, MY impression, not an official statement from Albion.

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Pamela Muir

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Posts: 282 Location: Arlington, VA

Tue 21 Nov, 2006 5:58 pm

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:

Hopefully that gives some indication...

Yes, indeed, that was very helpful. Thanks.

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MY impression, not an official statement from Albion.

You know I value your opinion. :) If you are ever in the neighborhood, come out and play.

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Bill Grandy

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Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA

Tue 21 Nov, 2006 8:02 pm

Aaron! Great to hear from you! Haven't seen you around these parts so much lately.

Don't worry, Pamela will be sure to test the flexibility of her sword by stabbing me in the face repeatedly. It's what she does.

Pamela Muir wrote:

If you are ever in the neighborhood, come out and play.

Just wanted to second that. :)

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Roger Hooper

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Posts: 4,393 Location: Northern California

Wed 22 Nov, 2006 7:52 am

That must have been a very thorny design problem, to make a sword that felt and performed like or near a sharpened,real one, yet was durable enough to endure the expected extra punishment, and didn't weigh 5 lbs. or more.

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Jan Chodkiewicz

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Posts: 31 Location: Danzig - POLAND

Fri 01 Dec, 2006 8:43 am

Hi,

I wonder why not to use Federschwerts for practicing? That was exactly what they did in XV and XVI centuries http://ensifer.mine.nu/feder/ I suppose that you could, without any problems, distribute mass so it would be like in the sharp weapon.

There is no longer problem of durable edge (federschwerts edge is 5-3 mm), flexible blade is easier to make and the fuller isn't necessary. From blacksmith point of view, you could call it the "half forged sword ;)"

The only problem, I can think of, with making practice weapon that imitates in 100% real one, is safety in the real sparing (I mean Blossfechten) I have already made a few models of Federschwerts, and those with mass distribution, like in real swords (PoB 8cm from guard, 1600g) were really painful in sparing (without armour, we couldn't hit with full strenght)

Here is a link for a short movie with those Feders -
http://wodzu.internetdsl.pl/arma/ARMA_Danzig2.avi
http://wodzu.internetdsl.pl/arma/SMDF_Gdansk2005.avi

That's why the new ones are more flexible, have punta on the tip, and the point of balance is closer to the guard (5- 6 cm) which reduces the power of strike (XVI century Federschwerts had PoB one inch from guard )

Besides us, those groups use them as well:

http://www.eisgass.ch/ (see MOVIES)

http://www.stockkampf.ch/historischesfechten.html

Last edited by Jan Chodkiewicz on Fri 01 Dec, 2006 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Peter Johnsson

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Posts: 1,757 Location: Storvreta, Sweden

Fri 01 Dec, 2006 9:43 am

Jan Chodkiewicz wrote:

Hi,

I wonder why not to use Federschwerts for practicing? That was exactly what they did in XV and XVI centuries http://ensifer.mine.nu/feder/ I suppose that you could, without any problems, distribute mass so it would be like in the sharp weapon.

There is no longer problem of durable edge (federschwerts edge is 5-3 mm), flexible blade is easier to make and the fuller isn't necessary. From blacksmith point of view, you could call it the "half forged sword ;)"

The only problem, I can think of, with making practice weapon that imitates in 100% real one, is safety in the real sparing (I mean Blossfechten) I have already made a few models of Federschwerts, and those with mass distribution, like in real swords (PoB 8cm from guard, 1600g) were really painful in sparing (without armour, we couldn't hit with full strenght)

Here is a link for a short movie with those Feders - http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=...1453DB3250

That's why the new ones are more flexible, have punta on the tip, and the point of balance is closer to the guard (5- 6 cm) which reduces the power of strike (XVI century Federschwerts had PoB one inch from guard )

Besides us, those groups use them as well:

http://www.eisgass.ch/ (see MOVIES)

http://www.stockkampf.ch/historischesfechten.html

Hi Jan!

For those who prefer the federschwert there is The Meyer in the Maestro line.

Pesronally I think it is a great idea to use the same training tool that was used in the old schools.
Some people prefer a traing tool that looks a little bit more like an actual sword in outline. For those, the Liechtenauer is a good choice.
The Meyer is lighter, both in mass, but most evident in heft and handling. It is a little more flixible, making thrusts less hazardous (although good protection still is a must).
Those who think the stiffness and sturdiness of an actual longsword is a prime issue for training might also prefer the Liechtenauer.

The two models were developed to meet different demands, practices and tastes.

If you want to make a presentation of what the traning might have looked like in the 15th C or 16th C, the Meyer is the obvious choice.
For those who might want to do sparring with tools that from a decent distance will visually emulate sharp weapons, will find the Liechtenauer meeting their needs.

Looking at historical presentations of these training weapons it is fairly common to see both midribs and fullers represented.
There is an advantage with including a fuller in a training sword.
The fuler allows a good thickness of the edges, while also increasing flexibility. As the heft of a sword very much depend on the mass in the point, having a fuller that runs the whole length will make for a lively blade that still has a safe edge and well rounded point.
These are features that are the basis for the design of the Meyer in the Maestro Line.

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Roger Hooper

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Posts: 4,393 Location: Northern California

Fri 01 Dec, 2006 10:27 am

The Liechtenauer will be great for stage combat use (unless you've gone to aluminum). The Meyer, just on its appearance, will not be appropriate for that use.

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Allen Andrews

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Posts: 305 Location: Maine USA

Fri 01 Dec, 2006 10:37 am

Since I am in the market for a training sword, I like the fact that there are more than one type to chose from. I am always a fan of individual choice :)

I just want to take this opportunity to say how much I enjoy Mr Johnsson's postings in this forum. They are always helpful, interesting, and obviously well thought out. If he were ever to publish works on his research (and I apologize in advance if he has already done so, and I am merely ignorant of the fact) I for one would be happy to purchase literature from this excellent source.

I think both Albion Arms and this website are lucky to have Mr Johnsson around.

Just my 2 cents

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Jan Chodkiewicz

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Posts: 31 Location: Danzig - POLAND

Tue 05 Dec, 2006 12:37 pm

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your reply about Federschwerts. The role of fuller in sword (or training sword) is very interesting. (I suppose that i should test it in new federschwert model ;))

The only information that I have access to, is the one on internet. I remember federschwert with midrib in Talhoffer Fechtbuch - http://www.schielhau.org/talpoint.html , and many other flat versions, but i have never seen a fuller in the federschwert blade (only in ricasso, so called shild, like this - http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/swiss-swords.html) Do you have any pictures or links, by any chance ?

Could you please tell me how thick is the point in Liechteanuer and Meyer? I'm asking, because I'm curious how you solve the problem of safe thrusting in sparing. Are there any changes in tapering that would increase flexibity of the blade (like those in modern sport weapon)?

Best Regards

Jan Chodkiewicz

Last edited by Jan Chodkiewicz on Tue 05 Dec, 2006 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Travis Canaday

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Posts: 147 Location: Overland Park, Kansas

Tue 05 Dec, 2006 2:41 pm

Allen Andrews wrote:

Since I am in the market for a training sword, I like the fact that there are more than one type to chose from. I am always a fan of individual choice :)

I just want to take this opportunity to say how much I enjoy Mr Johnsson's postings in this forum. They are always helpful, interesting, and obviously well thought out. If he were ever to publish works on his research (and I apologize in advance if he has already done so, and I am merely ignorant of the fact) I for one would be happy to purchase literature from this excellent source.

I think both Albion Arms and this website are lucky to have Mr Johnsson around.

Just my 2 cents

I second that. Peter Johnsson's comments are always appreciated and enjoyed.

I am very much looking forward to getting my Liechtenauer!

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Sean William Wood

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Posts: 2 Location: Bielefeld, Germany

Sun 31 Dec, 2006 8:35 am

Hi,

I'm a newbee here in the forum, and I'd like first to say what a great resource this is for Western marital arts practitioners!!!

Now, my question. I was wondering if anyone could comment on the differences in sparring with the Squire Line Great Sword or Bastard Sword and sparring with the Meastro Line swords. Do the Squire Line swords hold up as well in full-out combat practice?

Cheers,
Sean

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Peter Johnsson

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Posts: 1,757 Location: Storvreta, Sweden

Sun 31 Dec, 2006 10:23 am

Sean William Wood wrote:

Hi,

I'm a newbee here in the forum, and I'd like first to say what a great resource this is for Western marital arts practitioners!!!

Now, my question. I was wondering if anyone could comment on the differences in sparring with the Squire Line Great Sword or Bastard Sword and sparring with the Meastro Line swords. Do the Squire Line swords hold up as well in full-out combat practice?

Cheers,
Sean

The Squire Line will not hold up as well as the Maestro line, nor will they be as safe for your partner. The Squire line is intended as a beginner line, or swords made for a lean budget.
They *can* work for sparring, with adequate precautions, but are not as well suited as the Maestro line. They *can* also work decently in cuting pracitce if sharpened. The Maestro line are built from the ground up to be sparring swords. The Nex Generation line are fully functional sharp weapons built on the exact example of historical originals.
The Squire line swords are intended to be safely blunted swords that fulfill basic requirements of authenticity, but they are straddling different criteria or uses, and are there fore not the best sharp swords (compared to the Next Generation line) nor the best blunt sparring tools (compared to the Maestro Line).

If you want a decent authentic sword to use in reenactment situations where sharps are not allowed, then the Squire Line meet your needs, especially if you are on a tight budget.
If you will use your sword for WMA training, you should go for a Maestro line sword without any doubt.
If you want a well built, historically accurate sharp sword, then the Next Generation line is your choice.

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Sean William Wood

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Posts: 2 Location: Bielefeld, Germany

Sun 31 Dec, 2006 2:54 pm

Mr. Johnsson,

Thank you for your very clear reply. It looks like the meastro line swords are the best suited for my purposes (sparring against various weapons in real time with full power). I can't wait to try one out!!

Oh, and by the way, Happy New Year to everyone on the forum!!

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