[Felix R.]

Just a question.

How accurate can or shoul a sword be when the blank was milled by CNC an then ground by hand as finishing? Asking for the corner or the center of the fuller to the edge. What dimension would you give it a tolerance.

Just for example left is about 1mm wider than right or something like that. For a price of a 600$ single handed sword.

[Peter Johnsson]

A sword made from a CNC milled blank can be very accurate, but the degree of accuracy will vary depending on the wear of the tools. Even with a CNC machine there is a lot of hands on tweaking to compensate for tool wear and fixtures.
With the hand grinding, you will normally see some slight blurring of lines and perhaps a dip or shift somewhere. A skilled grinder will compensate small mistakes as he goes along to final finish so that little remains on the finished blade.
A skilled grinder can also bring out details that are not present in the blank, making the finished blade crisper and better defined. In this porcess you gain detail an definition but might lose some symmetry. Does this explanation make any sense?
Even the blank itself can sometimes show some slight ofsets as it comes of the CNC. With long, thin lengths of flexible steel, this can happen. With some types more than others as the milling tools will apply some preassure on the material.

In historical times an asymmetry of 1 mm would not have bothered a customer of the time in the least. Many originals show even greater asymmetry with undulating edges and crooked or snaking fullers.
We modern enthusiasts have a different frame of mind however. Contemporary swords are compared to machine perfect products.

It is also a question of how this assymmerty shows itself. Is there a general indistinct wavyness and blurring of lines and planes, or a slight shift in an otherwise nicely finished blade?
Does the bade as a whole look nicely done, with attention to lines and surfaces, or is the finish uneven or careless?

Grinding a fuller, keeping it centered and even takes some training to master. When you handgrind it is almost inevitable there will be some slight dips, if you look really closely.
I always go over my blades with stones and sanding blocks to take out all dips and waves. That is why I spend a day or two just polishing the fullers in a blade. My blades does not cost 600 USD, however.
I have seen Joe and Jason at work at Albion: they will get very consistent results and do it at an impressive speed. They are still doing their work by hand so there can be signs of this in the finished blade. The start and end of the fuller are especially sensitive. Here is where the slightest mistake will show most clearly, so this is looked to with the most attention.

If there is an overall ofset of about 1 mm along the whole blade, it is probably not a result of the handgrinding, but an off-set in the milling. Just my first guess.

I don´t know if this reply is at all helpful.
If you find the ofset in your blade disturbing, you should probably talk to the maker. The maker would be best placed to provide an answer.

[Greg Coffman]

Observation

Not owning any swords myself but taking careful note of discussions regarding Albion swords on this forum, I've noticed that there have been some comments in the direction of irregularities between the same sword and between the same blade on different swords in the Albion lineup. What I am not talking about is the difference between the blade on the new Earl vs the blade on the old Regent. As stated elswhere, this is an intentional change by Albion and all subsequent Regents should have the new blade as well.

What I am talking about is irregularities in production that might affect and produce slight variations in handling. Basically, not two swords are alike or feel just alike. That is my question, at least. [Again, let me state my inexperiance in handling first hand different Albion swords. This is only observation and speculation.] For example, the reviews of the Mercenary and Constable swords suggest that "The Mercenary seems to be just a tick slower than the Constable, though the difference is slight." In the reviews between the Landgraf and Sempach, "While still being similar in feel, the major difference is that the Sempach has more blade presence, and feels a bit livelier in the cut, while the Landgraf feels just slightly steadier in the thrust." And the Prince and Squire review, "While these swords share the same blade, they handle quite differently, due mainly to the difference in the swords' Points of Balance. The farther PoB of the Squire lends a little extra blade presence to that sword, while the Prince feels livelier in the hand."

I am sure that between the two swords at hand during the time of any particular review, the opinions of variations are accurate. But how far can we go to suggest that any particular sword is representative of all of the swords of that design and make? And if variations of enough significance exist to create noticable handling differences between the same blades, how far can we go to suggest that comparisons between different hilt components on the same blade are significant or even reliable?

I guess the next logical question would be, how much impact do hilt components have in relationship to the handling characteristics of any particular sword?

[Peter Johnsson]

[Felix R.]

Ok then I will just name it. And as Peter already dropped in, with indeed all aspects going directly to answer my question, thank you, I will name the sword.
It´s the Albion Sherriff I got today.

At first I must say, that this sword with its short broad blade is plane and impressive.

Then what I first noticed after closer inspection was that the "leaf" shape at the base is a little wider on one side. Following the fuller to it´s extinction I noticed a slight offset from the crisp edge of the fuller to the edge of the blade to one side by app. 1 mm to the right on both sides, so when you just twist the sword longitudinally its about 1mm to the right again.
The ending of the fuller might be really a difficult part, but in this case it just depends on the light, wether it looks a little off or not, so I assume its just imagination. But for the rest, what do you think. I am sure my girlfriend wouldn´t see it when I show her tomorrow.

[Chad Arnow]

[Felix R.]

Gosh, my girlfriend recognized the offset. So it´s that obvious I will send the sword back. It´s a pity, the harmonics were really nice.

[Patrick Kelly]

Did you hand the sword to your girlfriend and ask, "What's wrong with it?" or "See this........?" The question might make a difference in the response.

Even though a blade is milled on a CNC machine it will still be finished by hand. None of the swords in my collection are perfect, regardless of who made them, custom or production. As I said in another thread, if you absolutely can't stand any sort of variance you need to find another hobby.

That being said, only you can decide what is acceptable to you and what isn't. It's your money and if you aren't happy with the product you should return it to the manufacturer and seek satisfaction of one form or another. Don't let anyone else dictate that for you.

[Adam Simmonds]

i have an antique sword which handles great and is superbly made. it also has very, very slight curves in its edge lines and in the central ridge (it's of diamond cross section). these are not imperfections - remember these things were made by the living breathing hands of craftsmen - not by robots. the slight deviations in the straghtness of the lines detracts nothing from handling or aesthetic qualities and just goes to give it that bit of individuality which sets each well made sword apart from every other - its fingerprints you could say. mechanically straight lines are not historically accurate, rather, harmonious and elegant proportions coupled with majestic handling are the hallmarks of the original pieces and those genuine 're-creations' which issue from the hands of a few craftsmen today.

cheers, adam

[Jonathon Janusz]

I won't repeat much of what has been said. Suffice to say that my thoughts follow Peter and Patrick in spirit. I did want to comment, though, in particular on my Squire Line Knightly sword. I've personally had at least half a dozen of these in hand (my own included) and whether it was how the hilt came together, the blade was ground, or a bit of both, the one I own is the nicest feeling in hand out of all of them - even feels better to me than some of the NG Knights I've swung around. Not a huge difference, mind, but more than enough for me to take notice. I was looking to finance another project a while back and the SLK was potentially on the block. I decided against selling it (much to the dismay of one of my good friends who has made claim to it should I ever sell it) because in the end although I could replace it, I just knew I would never find another one exactly like it.

Without the variances in final production processes, I would have passed along a sword of an overall design which I thought was "okay". I would have also missed a chance to own a sword that surprised me and that I really enjoy. Heck, I even tried talking Mike into bringing it back into the shop to finish it up to full "next gen" dress.

Is it perfect? Nope, not even close. But that is the whole point.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hello Peter,

You mention how different swords of the same model in the NG line may handle slightly differently. Does this extend to the Museum Line. I have ordered a Solingen and hope that it will be extremely close in term of volumes and handling to the prototype, and thus to the original. Is a higher degree of consistency aimed for in the Museum Line?

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Bryce Felperin]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I actually like minor imperfections or differences in my swords, guns or any other tool I own. Sameness and perfection in tools to me are hallmarks of the unimaginative mind and reside in the sterility and blandness of industrialized society and not in the realm of creative artistry. So if your sword is perfect with no blemishes, imperfections or differences than any other of the same model...then you have a bland industrial tool and not a work of art.

I now have seven swords, which is a small collection compared to many on this list, and each and every one contains some imperfection or mark that separates it from any other sword of the same model I have or may see in the future. To me that indicates personality and a possessive mark of pride to me and not a blemish on its quality.

In fact, on some of my swords such as my Lutel, each and every mark, nick or scratch brings back to me an incident in its use or a property of the sword's "personality" that to me brings back fond memories of when I have used it in sparing or fights. I know with a good degree of certainty now where each of those marks was made or how each nick must of happened in a fight. That's part of owning a good tool that you use for defense, it tells a story of life and death (metaphorically speaking of course) and how it has served you well in its use.

I too have acquired swords with some "imperfections" on them, but if you look upon these imperfections as "personality marks" or unique identifiers of your sword and not as faults then you gain a good insight into the uniqueness of your weapon and not into nagging doubts on its use. For me, if a sword's imperfection doesn't affect it's handling or use then it's a "personality trait" and not a problem at all.

A good example would be my expensive Tinker which has a bit of an unequal taper towards the tip and small "nip" at the end of a fuller down one side that bulges out a bit more than the other. Does it affect the superb handling of this sword? NOT AT ALL! It is still one of the sweetest blades I have ever handled and I wouldn't dream of sending it off for "correction" for any reason whatsoever!

So cherish your sword's differences. Or as the old saying goes "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and enjoy your sword.

Bryce Felperin

[Al Muckart]

[Jared Smith]

Even if the two individual swords being compared are the same brand and model of blade, some forum members have commented within the past week that a particular scabbard does not fit two different swords given the same basic blade (different hilt and pommels.)

This is an example of how final precision (fitting with high quality precision into the furniture or a scabbard) comes down to fractions of a thousandth of an inch. A large degree of the final quality in the more premium priced swords is hand fitted. The CNC takes a lot of the initial labor costs out. But the final threshold of $600 USD or higher quality finished product is still "an art" based on hand craftsmanship and experience.

If parts are being produced in hundreds of thousands (car engine cylinders, pistons, etc.) there is an option to sort the parts statistically to match best fit assemblies. That is not really a viable option for swords being produced at the rate of a few dozen a month.

I think the quality versus price in the brand already mentioned in this thread is exceptional when the low numbers being produced, and the type of personal craftsmanship dedication required to pull it off is considered.

[Chad Arnow]

People's expectations vary widely in this regard. Most people will tolerate some evidence of hand-crafting, but not everyone tolerates the same amount. We all draw the line differently between "nuances of hand-crafting" and "sloppiness." Please note that I'm not speaking in generalities and not implying Felix's sword is or isn't up to snuff. It's not my sword and I haven't seen it, so I can't comment on it.

Something to consider: the blade of my Vince Evans dirk is hand-crafted: forged, then ground a bit and polished. Its lines are more clean than any CNC-milled or otherwise ground sword I've ever owned, but it still has character. Hand-crafting doesn't always result in unevenness. Perfection of line doesn't always result in sterility of appearance, either. The blade of my Evans ballock dagger shows a (very) little hand-work "variation" but is still damn impressive considering it was forged and ground completely by hand. I have no issues with it.

I have more reasonable tolerances than some people, but less than others. Most everything I own exhibits some of that natural "variation." It doesn't really bother me.

I actually like my Sovereign a little more now that a blade nick has been repaired and the finish on the guard and pommel has been taken to a more matte finish. It gives it the look of something that has been used but maintained, even though it hasn't earned that look from being on a campaign or battlefield.

But that's just me. We all have different standards. For example, some might not have minded the nick in the Sovereign's blade at all. Others would have still been upset even after it was fixed, since it is now slightly different side-to-side.

The buyer/owner has to be happy with their purchase. We can offer advice on what's acceptable for each of us, but at the end of the day, it's a very personal decision and one they have to live with.

[Al Muckart]

[Felix R.]

As you als said, slight imperfections are no problem, but when the fuller deviates to the right by about 1mm on both sides, it makes a total deviation of 2mm and it looks strange, when one edge is wider than the other.

And probably this was part of my question from the beginning, is there a range of tolerance that is reasonable on the higher end of the production market swords depending on the processing? Peter already defined some aspects.

With my Crecy everything is fine, there some slight grinding mark, some very small pittings in the pommel, this I wouldn´t consider a problem at all.

Thanks for all your comments shedding light on the whole thing.

[Peter Johnsson]

[Peter Johnsson]

[Peter Johnsson]