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Greyson Brown
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 Posted: Sat 28 Oct, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick,
Let me caveat this by saying that I have never fired a Series 80 Colt or a 1911 with a Swartz New Safety Device, but I was under the impression that the Swartz NSD was preferable. Since the Swartz NSD is connected to the grip safety, it shouldn't affect trigger pull or anything else. In fact, from the way it has been explained to me, I don't see how you could even tell a 1911 had the Swartz system installed unless you disassemble the piece or were told otherwise.
Conversely, I had been told that the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety was intigrated into the trigger mechanism and wreaked havoc on the trigger pull. How do the two systems differ, and why did you find the Series 80 to preferable to the Swartz New Safety Device? Also, I was not aware that Colt had ever bothered to manufacture 1911's with the NSD. Do you know what there reasoning was for not continuing with the Swartz device?
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 28 Oct, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Greyson Brown wrote: | Patrick,
Let me caveat this by saying that I have never fired a Series 80 Colt or a 1911 with a Swartz New Safety Device, but I was under the impression that the Swartz NSD was preferable. Since the Swartz NSD is connected to the grip safety, it shouldn't affect trigger pull or anything else. In fact, from the way it has been explained to me, I don't see how you could even tell a 1911 had the Swartz system installed unless you disassemble the piece or were told otherwise.
Conversely, I had been told that the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety was intigrated into the trigger mechanism and wreaked havoc on the trigger pull. How do the two systems differ, and why did you find the Series 80 to preferable to the Swartz New Safety Device? Also, I was not aware that Colt had ever bothered to manufacture 1911's with the NSD. Do you know what there reasoning was for not continuing with the Swartz device?
-Grey |
You're correct in that the Swartz safety doesn't effect the perceived trigger pull. It functions off of the grip safety rather than as a part of the trigger mechanism. In this respect it is perhaps preferable, Unfortunately it is a bit more complicated that the Series 80 safety and thus not without it's problems. Kimber has had their share of problems and returns because of it. If it works it works well and is unnoticed. If it doesn't the gun is non-functional. Mr. Swartz served as Colts chief design engineer back in the 30's when he developed the system. Colt had the same problems with it that Kimber has had. When WWII began they simply dropped it from the design rather than continue working with it, in order to ease wartime production. That was the end of it until Kimber adopted the system in order for their pistols to be eligible for sale in California. (under the states then-new guidelines)
The Series 80 system does indeed change the trigger pull. However, unless you're a bullseye shooter the difference is meaningless. Of the two 1911s I currently own, one is a series 80 and the other has the Series 70 system. The S70 pistol has the superior trigger pull, then again it should as it cost considerably more. The S80 pistol isn't as nice but it's far from horrible and in fact better than many similar pistols. The issue doesn't effect real-world function a bit. The worst trigger pull I've ever experienced on a 1911 was an older S70 pistol I owned a few years ago. It wasn't bad but it was far from good so I got rid of it rather than have it worked on. Many shooters don't like the S80 system simply because it's different than the original pistol and firearms enthusiasts are some of the most opinionated and obstinate people on the face of the earth, even more so than sword enthusiasts.  Gunsmiths give it a bad rap because it causes them to work a little harder to achieve that match grade trigger pull, so it's easier to trash talk the mechanism than educate themselves on a different process. The one virtue the S80 safety has over the Swartz is it's a simpler and more reliable mechanism that also has minimal real world effect on the design. When Colt changed over the the S80 system they already knew about the Swartz system since one of their folks had designed it back in the day. They chose the S80 design instead, something to think about.
In truth, this particular S70/S80 issue is probably the last thing I think of when buying a 1911. The firearms world is like everything else: it's full of opinions and extremes. The truth is usually a compromise of the issues.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 28 Oct, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Tonight my wife and I went out on the town with Greg and his lady Linda. We went to a local pub to listen to a friend play in a local band. I carried this pistol with me for the first time. I sported it in the sharkskin rig, concealed beneath a black leather blazer and felt oh so sexy doing it. 
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 28 Oct, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Tonight my wife and I went out on the town with Greg and his lady Linda. We went to a local pub to listen to a friend play in a local band. I carried this pistol with me for the first time. I sported it in the sharkskin rig, concealed beneath a black leather blazer and felt oh so sexy doing it. |
Now if you could just find an excuse to wear maille and the pistol. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Top Notch stuff, Patrick! My own carry piece is a little Colt Compact Commander, severely plain, but quite serviceable. I get to play with Kimbers, S&W and Springfield M1911's all day long, but I still prefer the old Colt. I also have my old M1911 Colt made in 1914 that I used to pack, but it's been retired for a while... I'd HATE to loose it for some reason! I've had it since I was 17 (I conned my Mom into signing for it, LOL!) and it's been my companion for many, many years. Good old girl, but taking a breather now.
For ivory and silver, I leave that for my SAA. 
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Tonight my wife and I went out on the town with Greg and his lady Linda. We went to a local pub to listen to a friend play in a local band. I carried this pistol with me for the first time. I sported it in the sharkskin rig, concealed beneath a black leather blazer and felt oh so sexy doing it. |
I've known some people to say that 1911's, even the Officer models, are just too big and heavy for concealed carry. I'm sure this is another case of everyone having an opinion, and feeling compelled to share it, but I was wondering if you encountered any problems with carrying what is generally considered a large-frame auto (not the Officer, obviously, but the Commander and full-sized variants).
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | Top Notch stuff, Patrick! My own carry piece is a little Colt Compact Commander, severely plain, but quite serviceable. I get to play with Kimbers, S&W and Springfield M1911's all day long, but I still prefer the old Colt. I also have my old M1911 Colt made in 1914 that I used to pack, but it's been retired for a while... I'd HATE to loose it for some reason! I've had it since I was 17 (I conned my Mom into signing for it, LOL!) and it's been my companion for many, many years. Good old girl, but taking a breather now.
For ivory and silver, I leave that for my SAA.
Cheers!
Gordon |
Thanks Gordon,
I'm thinking the old thumb buster is in need of some ivories too.
My youngest son Sean and I just got back from a Sunday afternoon shooting session. The Gunsite grows on me more and more as I shoot it. Sean prefers the Commander as it's a bit lighter and easier for him to control.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Greyson Brown wrote: | I've known some people to say that 1911's, even the Officer models, are just too big and heavy for concealed carry. I'm sure this is another case of everyone having an opinion, and feeling compelled to share it, but I was wondering if you encountered any problems with carrying what is generally considered a large-frame auto (not the Officer, obviously, but the Commander and full-sized variants).
-Grey |
Have those people ever been in a gunfight? As someone who's "seen the elephant" let me assure you that a large heavy pistol is quite preferable over a small pop gun when the feces hit the rotating oscillator. In the end it's really a matter of personal preference and what you're willing to tolerate but you'd be surprised how light that boat anchor feels when you really need it.
As Clint Smith has been known to say, "Guns are comforting not comfortable".
Since you've met me you're aware that I'm not exactly petite and that gives me a bit more flexibility in how large a weapon I can conceal on my person. One of the 1911's saving graces is it's a very flat pistol. Things like barrel length and grip size aren't nearly as important as width and thickness when it comes to concealment. A good holster and belt are also very important when effectively concealing a firearm. Many people spend huge sums of money on the weapon and then scrimp on the carry gear, this is a mistake.
Is it heavy? Yes, but that just lets me know it's there. Is it big? Yes, but it also hits hard which is a compromise I'm willing to live with. Also, if you wear it long enough you get use to it and it really isn't a big deal, just part of what you put on and take off.
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun 29 Oct, 2006 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
Excellent advice all around! Bravo! Far too many folks are either worried about "comfort", rather than either concealment or serviceablilty (or better yet both!), or some other tangental aspect of the equation. Those Galco "Miami Vice" holster rigs are very nice, and worth every penny. Sad that they got a lot of "high fashion press" as it were, but it's a good choice for wearing under a Hawaiian shirt!
I also figure that just about any model of Colt .45 is a good one. I've packed SAA's, New Services and M1911's, but I have to admit that the old slabside is far and away the easiest to carry, no question! Thankfully I've never had to even consider using one with serious intent, but they sure are a comfort, as you say. Comfort, not comfortable is a GREAT way to put it!
I just managed to score a beauty, too: A pre-1904 style Colt New Service in .45 with a 7-1/2" barrel. A bit of a brute, but man, what a nice revolver! Something about it that makes the new Smith and Wesson .500's just seem base and uninspiring by comparison. Ah, for the craftsmanship of old! But thankfully, there's not many ways you can make a 1911, and plenty of good old 20th Century machine work is pretty much it. So as long as those remain popular (and there is no end in sight!) we'll have craftsmen to supply them. Thank God!
Thanks for sharing the Colts, I do love them!
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Grodon.
| Gordon Frye wrote: | | Those Galco "Miami Vice" holster rigs are very nice, and worth every penny. Sad that they got a lot of "high fashion press" as it were, but it's a good choice for wearing under a Hawaiian shirt! |
My Galco rig is the Jackass, the original proto-Miami Classic design. (since they named it after me I had to buy it!) Galco reintroduced it in 2000 on their 30th anniversary and I bought one at that time. I really have found it to be very efficient.
| Quote: | | I just managed to score a beauty, too: A pre-1904 style Colt New Service in .45 with a 7-1/2" barrel. |
I'm so envious! I had one of those years ago. I bought it from the original owners wife. Apparently he'd fired it once, put it in the closet and left it there. It was 99% and an absolutely beautiful piece of craftsmanship that I let go in a less than wise moment. Ah, one of the many times I think, "I wish I hadn't done that". 
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Sun 29 Oct, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
I'm so envious! I had one of those years ago. I bought it from the original owners wife. Apparently he'd fired it once, put it in the closet and left it there. It was 99% and an absolutely beautiful piece of craftsmanship that I let go in a less than wise moment. Ah, one of the many times I think, "I wish I hadn't done that". |
Alas! All of the cool stuff I wish that I hadn't been dumb enough to let loose of! Of course, my safe, garage, and probably barn would be full of "cool stuff" that I wouldn't have time to play with, but still! Dang... 
Glad you have one of those Jackass Rigs, they're VERY nice! It's on my "one of these days" list... of course, true wisdom would encourage me to spend money on THAT, rather than on the "cool stuff" that I spend it on. But I am rather fond of the belly-band gizmo that I picked up (can't remember the name of it) which is great for tightly binding the piece to your waist, and works well for deep concealment when needed. But lucky for me, I don't HAVE to pack, I just get to when I feel the desire for some "comfort" companionship in a bad neighborhood.
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick and Gordon - I am beginning to get the idea that neither one of you is a Walther PPK, shaken not stirred kind of guy.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Patrick and Gordon - I am beginning to get the idea that neither one of you is a Walther PPK, shaken not stirred kind of guy. |
Gee, Steve, where'd you get THAT idea?
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Patrick and Gordon - I am beginning to get the idea that neither one of you is a Walther PPK, shaken not stirred kind of guy. |
The PPK is a girly-mans pistol and I hate martinis. 
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David Martin
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Tue 31 Oct, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
The PPK is a girly-mans pistol and I hate martinis. |
Though there's nothing girly about its 22lb double action trigger pull. A police officer friend of mine bought one years ago. It was a horrible beast to shoot and patterned more than it grouped.
I'll take my Colt Government .380 over the PPK any day of the week. It looks like a 1911A1 that was left too long in the dryer.
"When war-gods meet to match their might,
who can tell the bravest born?
Many a hero never made a hole
in another man's breast."
- Sigurd, The Lay of Fafnir
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Tue 31 Oct, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| David Martin wrote: |
I'll take my Colt Government .380 over the PPK any day of the week. It looks like a 1911A1 that was left too long in the dryer. |
I used to own one of those. Sweet gun that was very accurate too. I kind of miss it and wish I hadn't of sold it. I don't think they make it anymore either.
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David Martin
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Tue 31 Oct, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bryce Felperin wrote: | | I used to own one of those. Sweet gun that was very accurate too. I kind of miss it and wish I hadn't of sold it. I don't think they make it anymore either. |
You're right on both counts: My Colt is exceptionally accurate (albeit at close range - I don't shoot it at 25 yards) and Colt stopped making these little gems years ago. I have wondered how accurate Colt's subsequent mousegun offerings are given that they don't have barrel bushings.
I bought mine from a sports store that has since folded. When I learned that they had a second one, I tried to buy it as well, but the manager wouldn't sell it. He told me that it looked like someone had dragged it behind a car and it was in really rough shape. I told him that it didn't matter to me, as I was going to have it tuned by a gunsmith anyway and would probably have it plated with NP3. He wouldn't budge - my guess is that either he had friend who wanted it, or he wanted to put it on "damaged/defective" status and buy it himself at a big discount.
I had my gunsmith (the late great George Madore) do the action work, which included some of the Scott MacDougal aftermarket parts (trigger, guide rod, barrel bushing, etc.) along with aluminum magazine pads, three-dot Novak sights and NP3 plating courtesy of Robar. It's a beautiful little pistol. All it needs at this point are some really nice grips, as I'm not a fan of black plastic.
"When war-gods meet to match their might,
who can tell the bravest born?
Many a hero never made a hole
in another man's breast."
- Sigurd, The Lay of Fafnir
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Tue 31 Oct, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| David Martin wrote: | | Bryce Felperin wrote: | | I used to own one of those. Sweet gun that was very accurate too. I kind of miss it and wish I hadn't of sold it. I don't think they make it anymore either. |
You're right on both counts: My Colt is exceptionally accurate (albeit at close range - I don't shoot it at 25 yards) and Colt stopped making these little gems years ago. I have wondered how accurate Colt's subsequent mousegun offerings are given that they don't have barrel bushings.
I bought mine from a sports store that has since folded. When I learned that they had a second one, I tried to buy it as well, but the manager wouldn't sell it. He told me that it looked like someone had dragged it behind a car and it was in really rough shape. I told him that it didn't matter to me, as I was going to have it tuned by a gunsmith anyway and would probably have it plated with NP3. He wouldn't budge - my guess is that either he had friend who wanted it, or he wanted to put it on "damaged/defective" status and buy it himself at a big discount.
I had my gunsmith (the late great George Madore) do the action work, which included some of the Scott MacDougal aftermarket parts (trigger, guide rod, barrel bushing, etc.) along with aluminum magazine pads, three-dot Novak sights and NP3 plating courtesy of Robar. It's a beautiful little pistol. All it needs at this point are some really nice grips, as I'm not a fan of black plastic. |
Sounds like you have a gem there! I am SOOOOO envious! ;-) (for real)
I have a Utah CCW and live in CA where it does no good, but if I lived somewhere where I could carry I would definitely move heaven and earth to find another one of those Colt Government Issues to buy. In my mind it's a really perfect backup, primary carry gun for its size and accuracy. Alas, the memory of that sweet shooter gets filed away with the Beretta 92SB, Glock 17 (1st gen) and Sig 229 I have also parted with reluctantly in the past.
Of course now a days I am doing other things with my Tinker, AA Durer and soon to get Albion Munich. Of course now that I have a career instead of jobs pumping gas I can look forward to keeping my babies where they belong, at home in my safe. ;-)
Regards,
Bryce Felperin
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