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Marc Blaydoe
Location: Maryland Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 72
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 Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: Trying to decide, back or broad? |
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I am determined to get a Scottish basket hilt. If you were to have only one, would you choose the backsword or the broadsword? I get the impression from this and other fora that the broadsword tends to be identified with the '15, and the backsword with the '45? Would the backsword then be seen as a natural evolutionary development of the Scottish basket hilt? And any thought on WHY that might be (if it is) would be appreciated.
Or is this just a "boxers or briefs" sort of question? 
Marc Blaydoe, relative newbie
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GG Osborne
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Wow, you are opening a can of worms, aren't you?  In my opinion - and I think this is demonstrated by surviving specimins - the broadsword was older and evolved from the medieval broadsword with most of the antecedents being German in origin. The backsword co-existed in the Jacobite period was a more recent development perhaps evolving from the single-edged saber or the like. For your purposes, I think it's a matter of what you are trying to portray. Personally, I have a deeper interest in the 1745 but want the impression based on older, less recent developments. So I opt for an earlier pattern dirk and a ribbon-hilted broadsword - family hand-me-downs maybe. More romantic, at any rate !
The backsword will tend to be lighter and feel more supple - you can see some dueling going on with it. The broadsword is a cleaver. It's sole function was to part some appendage of your anatomy with it's source. In the final analysis, both co-existed in this period and it may just come down to a matter of taste. Good luck....George
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Mark...
Broadsword or backsword is purely a personal preference. Because of the larger blade the broadsword is heavier and less easy to wield. The backsword is more manueverable and would be my choice for active sword play. However, keep in mind that neither of these are fencing swords. They were not used in that manner originally and those available today should not be used in that manner, lest you end up with a badly nicked or broken blade.
There are a number of very good reproductions on the market today, but for my money the best and more historically accurate manufactured Scottish basket hilt swords come from CAS Ibeiria and are made by Hanwei. If you want to pay a small fortune for one there are plenty of custom makers ready to take your money. But, if you want the sword for the reasons that I think you do, then one of the Hanwei products will suit you nicely.
LR
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Backswords go as far back as the 1590's George Silver taught it's use in Paradoxes of Defence.
The Broadsword was not heavy despite what people tend to believe it averaged 1kg in weight.
Neither were unwieldy.
Lin, what makes you say that Backswords are more Manueverable?
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Chris Goerner
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think you should first decide on what style of basket you want, then match the blade to the hilt. For example, the majority of Stirling hilts I have seen have had backed blades, while the majority of Edinburgh hilts I've seen have broadsword blades. While there are exceptions to these rules, choosing the basket may help you decide on which style of blade would have been most commonly mated to it. Have you decided on a hilt design yet?
Sic Semper Tyranus
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Goerner wrote: | | I think you should first decide on what style of basket you want, then match the blade to the hilt. For example, the majority of Stirling hilts I have seen have had backed blades, while the majority of Edinburgh hilts I've seen have broadsword blades. While there are exceptions to these rules, choosing the basket may help you decide on which style of blade would have been most commonly mated to it. Have you decided on a hilt design yet? |
That's the key right there. Chris hit the nail on the head here.
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Marc Blaydoe
Location: Maryland Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Goerner wrote: | | I think you should first decide on what style of basket you want, then match the blade to the hilt. For example, the majority of Stirling hilts I have seen have had backed blades, while the majority of Edinburgh hilts I've seen have broadsword blades. While there are exceptions to these rules, choosing the basket may help you decide on which style of blade would have been most commonly mated to it. Have you decided on a hilt design yet? |
Well, I have been eyeing the 2003 Hanwei which only comes in the backsword as far as I have been able to determine. I was originally attracted to the Cold Steel broadsword. Not looking to do any real slicing and dicing, just want to "celebrate" Scottish ancestry and remember my years stationed at the Holy Loch. Looking to complete a highlander "set", on one wall, sgian dubh, dirk, basket hilt, targe and maybe a decorative pistol. I do want a sturdy sword tho' 'cause I might take it doon a time or twa'. Guess I like the shiny more than the blued. Hope that isn't sacreligious or anything...
But I am torn, I like the design of the blade on the Cold Steel, but I like the basket of the Hanwei. Decisions, decisions. And I haven't even STARTED on deciding what kind of dirk or sgian dubh. I have to admit I had no idea how much variety there was when i started...
I do appreciate all the input so far!
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Scottish Broadsword |
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Speaking out as a newbie (and long-while watcher/reader) I have the Cold Steel broadsword.
Like almost everything Cold Steel offers, it is a bit on the heavy side...
but is a nice blade.
I'm wondering if you intend to wield your choice of blade, or simply hang it on the wall. If the former, then I don't think you'd have any issues with the Cold Steel item, as I don't think this blade breaks very easily.
Hope this helps...
and really hope I'm not opening a can of worms, as I didn't bring my apetite!
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Martin Wilkinson wrote: | Backswords go as far back as the 1590's George Silver taught it's use in Paradoxes of Defence.
The Broadsword was not heavy despite what people tend to believe it averaged 1kg in weight.
Neither were unwieldy.
Lin, what makes you say that Backswords are more Manueverable? |
Martin...note that I did not say either of them were unwieldy, just that the backsword is more manueverable. I found that to be true because of the difference in weight in the blade. Backsword blades are generally more narrow than broadswords with less weight. That comes from personal experience.
Nearly all swords were lighter than people think. The idea that the two-handed Scottish sword weighed in the neighborhood of 10 lbs or more is fixed in the average person's mind. That may have stemmed from the regular display of "parade" swords and various "swords of state", which were never intended to be used as weapons. Obviously a very heavy blade, while it can be swung, makes it very hard to recover for a second blow, should you miss your target.
LR
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Marc Blaydoe wrote: | | Chris Goerner wrote: | | I think you should first decide on what style of basket you want, then match the blade to the hilt. For example, the majority of Stirling hilts I have seen have had backed blades, while the majority of Edinburgh hilts I've seen have broadsword blades. While there are exceptions to these rules, choosing the basket may help you decide on which style of blade would have been most commonly mated to it. Have you decided on a hilt design yet? |
Well, I have been eyeing the 2003 Hanwei which only comes in the backsword as far as I have been able to determine. I was originally attracted to the Cold Steel broadsword. Not looking to do any real slicing and dicing, just want to "celebrate" Scottish ancestry and remember my years stationed at the Holy Loch. Looking to complete a highlander "set", on one wall, sgian dubh, dirk, basket hilt, targe and maybe a decorative pistol. I do want a sturdy sword tho' 'cause I might take it doon a time or twa'. Guess I like the shiny more than the blued. Hope that isn't sacreligious or anything...
But I am torn, I like the design of the blade on the Cold Steel, but I like the basket of the Hanwei. Decisions, decisions. And I haven't even STARTED on deciding what kind of dirk or sgian dubh. I have to admit I had no idea how much variety there was when i started...
I do appreciate all the input so far! |
Ditto on the style of hilt. The 2003 and 2003N only have backsword blades. The Cold Steel Broadsword is quite a blade and, if I were to go into battle with a sword, it would likely be my choice. It seems very sturdy and well-made, although not as authentic overall as the Hanwei products. By the way, hiltmakes frequently put finish of one sort or another on the hilts.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | I found that to be true because of the difference in weight in the blade. Backsword blades are generally more narrow than broadswords with less weight. |
Lin, are you referring to specifically the Hanwei swords, or in general? Because in general that's simply not true. For every backsword that's more manueverable than a broadsword, there's a broadsword that's more manueverable than a backsword. I'm not talking modern reproductions, I'm talking about period antiques. The backsword/broadsword distinction has little to do with handling: There are a multitude of other factors (including weight and balance) that have far more to do with handling, not the number of edges.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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GG Osborne
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| Posted: Thu 05 Oct, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Just a word of experience here. The Cold Steel basket is a copy of the British 1831 pattern and would not be correct for anything much earlier. It is heavy and poorly balanced. I bought and used a Paul Chen (Hanwai) basket hilt for a project and can say that of all the less expensive hilts out there, it had a better shape and size to the basket than anything I found. For me at least, a basket should fit the hand like a steel glove and the Hanwai comes pretty close to that. It is rather plain but a little filing and Dremel work can take care of that. If you go with a commercially made model, Hanwai beats Cold Steel hands down as far as I am concerned.
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Fri 06 Oct, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Lin Robinson wrote: | | I found that to be true because of the difference in weight in the blade. Backsword blades are generally more narrow than broadswords with less weight. |
Lin, are you referring to specifically the Hanwei swords, or in general? Because in general that's simply not true. For every backsword that's more manueverable than a broadsword, there's a broadsword that's more manueverable than a backsword. I'm not talking modern reproductions, I'm talking about period antiques. The backsword/broadsword distinction has little to do with handling: There are a multitude of other factors (including weight and balance) that have far more to do with handling, not the number of edges. |
Bill...
I am referring to the Hanwei swords. The member who asked the question is apparently asking about a modern-made sword. I am aware that there were many broadswords made with narrow and lighter blades during their heyday. As you point out, the number of edges defines the blade, not the width. In fact, a quick look at the beautiful photos of broadswords in The Swords and the Sorrows, shows very few broadswords with blades as wide as those typically found on modern-made swords. You are absolutely correct regarding antique blades.
LR
PS...I tried to post this earlier, so if another one shows up on this subject please excuse me.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Marc Blaydoe
Location: Maryland Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Fri 06 Oct, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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I guess what I am looking for is a "real" sword, not simply a wall-hanger, otherwise I would just buy a shiny Pakistani blade and be done with it (well, I REALLY don't like the metal scabbards). Basically, as historically accurate and as useable as possible for a modest budget would suffice. But I am not planning on actually going into battle...
Is the Andrea Ferrera stamp pretty much limited to the broadsword blades?
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Fri 06 Oct, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Marc Blaydoe wrote: | I guess what I am looking for is a "real" sword, not simply a wall-hanger, otherwise I would just buy a shiny Pakistani blade and be done with it (well, I REALLY don't like the metal scabbards). Basically, as historically accurate and as useable as possible for a modest budget would suffice. But I am not planning on actually going into battle...
Is the Andrea Ferrera stamp pretty much limited to the broadsword blades? |
Mark...
The Hanwei swords are good swords and I think they would meet your definition of a "real" sword. The Andrea Ferrara name is etched on both the broadsword and backsword.
LR
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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