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Hervé Caillau




Location: France
Joined: 21 Aug 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 3:13 am    Post subject: Dordogne swords         Reply with quote

Question
Hi,

I am looking for pictures of the XVth swords found in the river Dordogne in the 1970's. Mr Oakeshott often referred to this find. Some were well preserved.
Clearly, I don't need pictures of the supposed reproductions of these swords. I would like pictures of the real ones !
If someone can help, I would appreciate.

All the best.

Hervé le gascon
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: Dordogne swords         Reply with quote

Hervé Caillau wrote:
Question
Hi,

I am looking for pictures of the XVth swords found in the river Dordogne in the 1970's. Mr Oakeshott often referred to this find. Some were well preserved.
Clearly, I don't need pictures of the supposed reproductions of these swords. I would like pictures of the real ones !
If someone can help, I would appreciate.

All the best.

Hervé le gascon


Hi
Here's a link to one.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vmuseum/vmxva7.html
Geoff
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Salut

Another one here :

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm50...b=A-50.txt

Not in my financial reach, I fear.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 4:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I strongly suggest the following book:


Blankwaffen/Armes blanches/Armi bianche/Edged weapons

by Karl Stuber, Hans Wetter (editors)

It contains an article by Ewart Oakeshott entitled "A River-Find of 15th Century Swords" that describes a series of swords found in a sunken barge from the Dordogne River near Castillon-la-Battaille.

The article is followed up in "Further Notes on a River-Find of 15th Century Swords" in the Park Lane Arms Fair Catalogue I (1984). Even more info is available in an article "The Swords of Castillon" from the Park Lane Arms Fair Catalogue 10 (1993).

And, of course, one can find even more info scattered in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword.

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Don Stanko




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do own one of the swords, but it is not in particularly good shape. The quillons are missing and it is heavily corroded. The one thing that had weathered well is the wood. Most of the scabbard is still clinging to the blade and the wooden handle is present. It is a very long, stiff sword, obviously made to penetrate armour.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don Stanko wrote:
I do own one of the swords, but it is not in particularly good shape. The quillons are missing and it is heavily corroded. The one thing that had weathered well is the wood. Most of the scabbard is still clinging to the blade and the wooden handle is present. It is a very long, stiff sword, obviously made to penetrate armour.


Any chance you could post some pictures?

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are photos of 17 of the swords from the Dordogne River near Castillon-la-Battaille. These are amongst the some 80 or so swords found scattered throughout the find. The variety of items and sheer size of this find makes it important.

The lot is divided into two groups of similar swords with two additional ungrouped swords. Items in Group A are all single-handed swords with stout blades and wheel pommels. Group B contains swords that are more proportioned for hand-and-a-half use, having a longer tang/grip and longer, more slender blades. They are all Type XV or Type XVIII (or one of their subtypes).

The remaining two swords include a large two-hander and a shorter single-hander with a rare spherical pommel of Oakeshott Type R form.

These swords are now scattered throughout various collections of the world but mostly rest within private collections.



 Attachment: 8.6 KB
DordogneCastillon_B.jpg
Swords from the Dordogne River near Castillon-la-Battaille
Large two-hander (115cm blade)
Smaller one-hander (62.5cm blade) with spherical pommel


 Attachment: 39.09 KB
DordogneCastillon.jpg
Swords from the Dordogne River near Castillon-la-Battaille
Groups A + B (15 of 17 swords)


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Eric Allen




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a word:

Wow! Eek!
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Aug, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for those picturres, Nathan. I've never seen so many of the Castillon swords together before.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Aug, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The museum I am at has one of the castillon swords. I have some pictures but it may take some time to locate them. I will post it once found,

RPM
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Aug, 2006 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've edited the Post Above to better describe the Dordogne/Castillon find.

It now shows 17 swords from the find, including two that are quite unlike the rest including a large two-hander and a very small one-hander with a rare spherical (Oakeshott Type R) pommel.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 5:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
I've edited the Post Above to better describe the Dordogne/Castillon find.

It now shows 17 swords from the find, including two that are quite unlike the rest including a large two-hander and a very small one-hander with a rare spherical (Oakeshott Type R) pommel.


Thanks Nathan! That's the single best group photo I've seen of all of these together. Very interesting, some of those look like the spitting image of some current production swords (or I suppose it's the other way around).

Now the question, I believe that I read somewhere that Oakeshott was able to identify one of the swords in the find as having belonged to John Talbot who was killed at Castillion in 1453. Does anyone know if it is one of these?

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ,

I have never heard it was found but I have a picture or drawing of Talbot's effigy. That perhaps could be the link,

RPm
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Russ,

I have never heard it was found but I have a picture or drawing of Talbot's effigy. That perhaps could be the link,

RPm


Any chance you can post the picture? I REALLY need to go find where I read that so that I can explain Oakeshott's methodology better. Perhaps it was in The Sword in Hand... I do not recall if he was looking at an effigial source or not. To me an effigy would be somewhat suspect just because one never knows how much artistic license might have been taken or how much current fashion (i.e. the fashion at the time the effigy was created) might have been taken into account rather then focusing on an actual portrayal of the real sword owned by the owner.

Has anyone ever done any reading about John Talbot or the Earl's of Shrewsbury in general? Fascinating stuff. It could easily be a fiction book (or series of them) or a movie.

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ,

John Talbot was a reall interesting person. I will never understand the charge of castillon... I get tired of hearing as it was the great victory of the gun... gee the poor guy charges a fortified camp and is out numbered 3 to 1 by just the french archers! Victory of the cannon,hah poor guy, he must have thought he knew something the french didn't. I Pm'd you two pictures of the effigy (I hope, could not figure out how to post them on the board, perhaps my connection is just to slow?)

RPM
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ignore that the pictures are too big...

RPM
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Russ,

John Talbot was a reall interesting person. I will never understand the charge of castillon... I get tired of hearing as it was the great victory of the gun... gee the poor guy charges a fortified camp and is out numbered 3 to 1 by just the french archers! Victory of the cannon,hah poor guy, he must have thought he knew something the french didn't. I Pm'd you two pictures of the effigy (I hope, could not figure out how to post them on the board, perhaps my connection is just to slow?)

RPM


Hey Randall,

My theory is that Talbot got ahold of some bum information about just what he was facing, he thought he was moving on an unprepared French camp, not knowing that it was fortified and the French were waiting. A sad end (well for the English anyway I guess) of a storied career. Some of his descendants were pretty decent warriors in their own right. It's all in the genes. Happy The p.m. did not work either, you could always email them if you have the time to: ramellis1@bellsouth.net I'll resize and post...

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Attached are Randal's photos:

"Here is the effigy. This is from the Victoria and Albert Casts collections.

John Talbot born c 1390-1453"



 Attachment: 74.63 KB
London-V&A-(33).jpg


 Attachment: 70.3 KB
London-V&A-(23).jpg


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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very cool. Thanks Nathan!
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 7:21 am    Post subject: Talbot's sword         Reply with quote

Hey Russ

I think, if I remeber correctly, that Ewart says one sword above the rest in the find was exceptionally fine and one could imagine that Talbot himself could have welded it as a warrior of such stature would almost certainly have a sword as fine as money could buy. It may have been illustartive of the quality of the swords feel than the actuall attribution to the lord as the owner of the sword. This is off the top of my memory so I will try and check and make sure that it is what I stated above. :-)

Craig
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