Posts: 598 Location: Andalucia
Tue 01 Aug, 2006 11:49 pm
| Sean Flynt wrote: |
| . So, the use/recovery of the estoc might be quite different. Anybody willing to break an arm for science? :D |
Mwah. Maybe with a revolving dummy and a far shorter sabre in an excise area.
Remember Sean, we are talking about another mounted fighter and no way he will spin. The estoc is designed to pierce armour so will be jammed into that too.
I can imagine it will be far wiser to forget about it as soon as it hits home end grab for the broadsword or blunt instrument.
I will find out though.
Peter
Posts: 226 Location: Maryland, USA
Wed 02 Aug, 2006 7:18 am
Hitting another mounted fighter with enough force to pierce his armor should be enough to make him at least twist in his saddle a bit and give you a chance of pulling the estoc free. Also, if you get a good strike in you could unhorse (or kill) the other fighter and he should slide off of your blade as he falls.
Just my thoughts...
BTW, Estocs were used as early as the 13thC? I thought they came around much much later.
-James
Posts: 598 Location: Andalucia
Wed 02 Aug, 2006 12:11 pm
| J. Bedell wrote: |
Hitting another mounted fighter with enough force to pierce his armor should be enough to make him at least twist in his saddle a bit and give you a chance of pulling the estoc free. Also, if you get a good strike in you could unhorse (or kill) the other fighter and he should slide off of your blade as he falls.
Just my thoughts...
BTW, Estocs were used as early as the 13thC? I thought they came around much much later.
-James |
Mr.Oakeshott mentions the type used in a 1250 battle. The discussed Polish ones indeed later as mentioned.
The problem with using the estoc from horsback is that you do not strike but poke. It will go in and might go through. The force will be minimum and there is a whole lot of force needed to lift a good rider from a deep sadddle and these guys were way, WAY better than the best nowadays. Ever seen a rejoneador at work or a vaquero unfooting a cow with the garrocha? These are professionals but in no way as professional in the saddle like the fighting knights.
However.... In the abovementioned quote by Oakesshott the foe is lifted clear from the saddle stuck on the estoc ran through him. The teller used the estoc couched under his armpit. It must have been quite long too.
Yes, he recovered his estoc by dropping the victim.
The opponent was a saracen and used a jinetta-type saddle without a high cantle and rode with very short stirrups. The guy would probably not have been a 150 pounder either.
What he would have done had his adversery had been a frankish opponent no so (realtively) easily lifted from the saddle is open to anybodies guess... In THIS tale it worked however and he did recover his estoc.
A good check will be a practical test using a 60-70 kilo meal-sack firmly wedged in a wooden V a foot deep.
Now take a gallop at it with the MRL-stick and run it FORCEFULLY though the sack. Keep the horse on the move and see what happens.
Now please take into account that the other guy would have been travelling at a fair and menacing pace towards you and not just sitting there like the sack of horse-feed....
I guess you will have to let go or end up with a hurting arm like Sean suggests. Do not worry, I will try. I can ride, have horses, feed-sacks and wood. Just need the estoc ;)
Btw, lots of concrete-reinforcing iron lying around too so :lol:
Peter
http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/
Posts: 226 Location: Maryland, USA
Wed 02 Aug, 2006 12:29 pm
Peter,
I see your point, it makes perfect sense to me now. With a needle-like sword it would punch right through any resistance without a hard impact. Hmmm.....It seems unreasonable that the estoc would be carried just to be used once though.....
I look forward to hearing the results of your test Peter.
-James
Posts: 598 Location: Andalucia
Thu 03 Aug, 2006 12:17 am
| J. Bedell wrote: |
.....It seems unreasonable that the estoc would be carried just to be used once though.....
|
Well, whats the difference with single shot fire arms, or a lance, or a javelin...
It all depends. There are SOOOOOOO many strategies, tactics and arms to execute them.
The earliest mounted cavalries did not go into close combat at all.
The numidian cavalry started out with nothing more than a handfull of javelins. They did not even carry a word untill the Punic wars were well under way.
The scythian warriors carried just a bow and a filled quiver.
Effective mounted cavalry is older than practical swords and my personal view is that the most ancient of mounted warriors were quite correct in using the mobility of the horse to maximum effect and leave man-to-man to men....But that is a bit of-topic.
Peter
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