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Shae Bishop
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 Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: What was worn under a jack? |
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I was wondering what would be worn underneath a padded jack. In period artwork there are a number of examples where men wear jacks for torso defense and have plate armour on the arms, in scenarios like this I would imagine a gambeson would need to be worn underneath for padding on the metal armour. Were gambesons worn with jacks? And if no additional plate or maille was worn, would the jack be worn directly over a simple shirt? Also, were most 14th century jacks long sleeved, short sleeved, or sleeveless? That would influence one's ability to wear other armour on the arms. I don't know much about padded jacks in general but I would like to know more.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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A padded jack can be worn over regular clothing but if plate is worn on the limbs then an arming doublet needs to be worn so that gussests can be pointed to it. A padded jack can consist of up to 30 layers of quilted cloth. This creates a very stiff defense. If it has sleeves then they need to be significantly lighter to enable the arms to bend. During the 14th century a common combination was wearing a padded jack over a mail haubergeon. The combination was considered proof against the heaviest longbows.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The combination was considered proof against the heaviest longbows. |
Your not going to start this one again.... 
Shae,
Dan is right on about the design and such of the Jack. What could be worn is dependant on if they are in armour or not. If not I assume just their normal clothing. It does not have to be 30 layers though, it seems this was an optimal though. I have to say that a many layered jack gets VERY, VERY thick. I saw one made for a museum piece that could stand up on its own...... I would assume it to be very good defence, especially with a mail shirt over but I would not go as far as saying it was proof but surely it was good protection.
Randall
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | | Quote: | | The combination was considered proof against the heaviest longbows. |
Your not going to start this one again....
Shae,
Dan is right on about the design and such of the Jack. What could be worn is dependant on if they are in armour or not. If not I assume just their normal clothing. It does not have to be 30 layers though, it seems this was an optimal though. I have to say that a many layered jack gets VERY, VERY thick. I saw one made for a museum piece that could stand up on its own...... I would assume it to be very good defence, especially with a mail shirt over but I would not go as far as saying it was proof but surely it was good protection.
Randall |
you saw 1 in a museum? hmmm repropuction? cause i believe there are less than 5 known in teh world and they are not 100% sure that they are true jacks.
yes, a jack in itself was the armour. in my 15thc reenactment i wear a pourpoint vest to hold up my hosen, then an arming doublet to tie my arms/spaulders too and then my 24 layered jack.
there is also a reference to a jack stuffed with mail, stag and then later on (early 16th?) horn plates becoming a jack of plates.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Jack stuffed with maile is intriguing: This must be different than having maille between layers of fabric.
Loose clumps of maille in pockets should be very very hard to pierce as a lot of energy would be wasted just moving the loose maille around. Would old scraps of maille find their final usage as stuffing in a Jack ? Sound like a good idea to me.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Jack stuffed with maile is intriguing: This must be different than having maille between layers of fabric. |
No it isn't. We use the word "stuffed" differently to how it was used in the past. A jack stuffed with mail was simply a gestron or jazerant - a layer of mail sewn between layers of cloth.
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Shae Bishop
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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So, am I right in understanding that a jack would not be stuffed with anything like a gambeson would? I can't imagine 30 layers of fabric with stuffing in between also. And when we talk about normal clothes underneath what would these clothes consist of? Would just a shirt be worn?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Jack stuffed with maile is intriguing: This must be different than having maille between layers of fabric. |
No it isn't. We use the word "stuffed" differently to how it was used in the past. A jack stuffed with mail was simply a gestron or jazerant - a layer of mail sewn between layers of cloth. |
Thanks, nice to know and too bad as it sounded at first glance like an interesting way to make a Jack.  
Probably would end up too heavy and the loose maille might have easily damaged the supporting fabric like too much loose change in one's pockets. Happens a lot up here in Canada with our one dollar and two dollar coins replacing paper money.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Chuck,
I thought when I said | Quote: | | I saw one made for a museum piece |
I said it was a repo. I have seen one of the originals though actually up close though, but the one I was speaking of was the repo, sorry I was unclear about that.
I am with dan on the stuffed term as well as the method of using mail inside the jack.
Randall
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Rod Parsons
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Randall | Quote: | yes, a jack in itself was the armour. in my 15thc reenactment i wear a pourpoint vest to hold up my hosen, then an arming doublet to tie my arms/spaulders too and then my 24 layered jack.
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24 layers of what exactly? What fabric, what weight?
Rod.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Rod,
I did not say that???.....
I assume heavy weight linen and wool
Randall
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Rod Parsons
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| Posted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 10:46 pm Post subject: Ooops. |
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Sorry, bad editing on my part. Chuck said it.
I'm interested in knowing the specific materials and weights.
Rod.
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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randall, sorry about that i read your post fast, it was my bad
as too my jack its 24 layers of 7.1+ oz linen its almost an inch or so thick.
now my buddy james shot his 15 layered one (4 layers of 5oz, 11 layers of 3.5oz linen with a 50 lb long bow against a tree at about 10 yards.. the bodkin went thru the front 15 layers but not thru the back.
this fall's event i plan on putting my to the test. i dont think it will pierce mine as easy as it did his.
mine:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...ull/07.jpg
james's
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gal...ull/17.jpg
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Rod Parsons
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| Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: Tree? |
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That's kind of a hard backing isn't it? I shot, purely for amusement, a spare costume jack sleeve (the whole about 7/8" thick) with a field point on a 500 grain shaft at 54 lb draw weight on a brand new Egertec straw boss (very hard). It went through a single layer of the opened out sleeve about 1 1/2", (1 of 7 oz linen/5 of not very dense coat wool/1 of 7 oz linen) but bounced off the second layer of the whole sleeve only dimpling the inside of the second layer.
1200 grain Standard Arrow with a sharp medium type 8 bodkin on a 3/8" ash shaft at 65lb draw weight went right on through both layers. On a softer field boss it went through about 5", on the hard straw boss it stopped it at about 2 1/4".
Didn't even bother about subjecting it to anything more aggressive.
But I am holding off on testing or conclusions until I produce something that Dan won't say is "unrepresentative".
The coat wool I have is very dense in comparison and I would use more layers especially in the body and I have some good 14 oz linen canvas.
Rod.
Chuck,
What draw weights, arrow weights and types of bodkin? Do you have pictures of the bodkins if you do not know the types?
Last edited by Rod Parsons on Mon 17 Jul, 2006 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Jack stuffed with maile is intriguing: This must be different than having maille between layers of fabric.
Loose clumps of maille in pockets should be very very hard to pierce as a lot of energy would be wasted just moving the loose maille around. Would old scraps of maille find their final usage as stuffing in a Jack ? Sound like a good idea to me. |
Jean, wouldn't it rust if you couldn't take it out to say, get water off it?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Jack stuffed with maile is intriguing: This must be different than having maille between layers of fabric.
Loose clumps of maille in pockets should be very very hard to pierce as a lot of energy would be wasted just moving the loose maille around. Would old scraps of maille find their final usage as stuffing in a Jack ? Sound like a good idea to me. |
Jean, wouldn't it rust if you couldn't take it out to say, get water off it? |
Yes, probably, but so would the jazerant or maille between layers of fabric have the same problem ?
Either the rust didn't worry them or they had a solution to the problem like tin plating maybe ? Just a guess. 
Grease or oil would be messy and no way to re-grease unless one could easily get to the maille between the layers, a bit like the lining of a winter coat that isn't attached all the way around ?
Now, no proof this was ever done but lets say one had a large number of small patches of old maille and wanted to make a cheap improvised form of jack. One could used these patches sewed to a backing overlapping at the edges and then cover them with fabric i.e. Really cheap jazerant ??? Probably this old maille would be repaired with new rings to form a conventional and continuous assembly before being used in a jazerant.
Nobody can say this never happened EVER, even as a one-off, but as proof of anything it is not.  But if I''m asked to speculate and use my imagination I will. I will add that there is ZERO evidence that I know of for this as something that would be common practice.
In any case I tend to believe Dan that my idea of loose maille as stuffing was never used and my original speculation was mostly a question that got answered in the negative.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Mail was tinned in Rome and later in Western Europe. In India and the Middle East they sometimes galvanised their mail. I'm guessing that this type of rust protection would be more common on mail that was intended to be sewn into fabric.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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At his same time period the brigandine plates are being tinned so it could be possible,albeit I do not know of any examples of mail being tinned.
Randall
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jul, 2006 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Is it posssible that jazerants/kazaghands were constructed in such a way as to allow the inner and outer layers to be removed periodically for the mail to be cleaned?
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jul, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: |
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This illustration from the Osprey book on the War of Roses shows the purpose of a jack pretty well. Worn over a mail-shirt it provides considerable and especially affordable protection. Note the seperate arms attatched with points to the jack.
Usually the halberdier would wear additional jack-chains but these are omitted in the picture for clarity.
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This is a standard topic
