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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, after verification I was thinking of the mummies ot Takla Makan, in a much older time frame. But still, these mummies indicate a strain of taller red-blond haired peoples on the China-mongol border, which area will see the the rise of the Xiongnu. who certainly interacted with the scythians and such... I tried to find more precise information on the human remains of the Altai mounds, but came up blank. More is written on the artefacts and the horses than on the human remains for now. The french Carnets de l'Archeologie have some articles, but nothing on point. Recently, on Discovery, a team reseaching the Amazon connection found remains of fair tall warrior women, and extracted dna (southern Ukraine), and finally linked up with some children of nomad tribes further east. Quite amazing, as all the other children were clearly of mongol extraction, as was this child, but she nevertheless had fair hair and eyes, and the dna apparently confirmed a connection. So still more research to be done for sure, and no absolutes in sight, but what we do have in connection to the general time frame of the trojan war does indicate that men of those races, in that time frame, were quite short by modern standards. It then follows that the surface of their round shields, as depicted on their pottery, could be calculated by taking into account their arm length and such. I noticed, on the pottery I referred to (Bull's Arms and Armor, page 25), that the shields shown are not the same size. the shield with the banner is larger, as the warrior holding it is also sturdier than his comrade ( compare the heights of the knees, both men standing flat footed),
On the next page there is a great photo of the welsh round shield (found at Moel Siabod) which is in the British Museum. I wonder what the size of that could be.
All for now,
Jean-Carle Hudon

Bon coeur et bon bras
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If we are talking about participants in the Trojan War and Aias in particular then the region we are interested in is the Aegean, not the Asian steppes. Aias was from the Mykenaian empire, not the Hittite empire. I don't know about skeletal remains but the bronze panoply found at Dendra fits a man about 5'9" in height. Assuming that this is a typical height for a Mykenaian noble then, based on Homer's text, Aias was considerably taller than this.
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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
Joined: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
If we are talking about participants in the Trojan War and Aias in particular then the region we are interested in is the Aegean, not the Asian steppes. Aias was from the Mykenaian empire, not the Hittite empire. I don't know about skeletal remains but the bronze panoply found at Dendra fits a man about 5'9" in height. Assuming that this is a typical height for a Mykenaian noble then, based on Homer's text, Aias was considerably taller than this.


If we are talking about the Trojan War, the Aegean is far from the *only* region of importance.
The whole Black Sea basin is of great import for Greek mythology in general, and the nomad tribes definitely lived in that whole area.

The Trojans weren't Mycenaeans either, but the tale-tellers don't speak of any significant height discrepancy between the Achaeans and their enemies.

The way the Dendra panoply is put together, I can't see height being much of an issue. It's basically just a long skirt. :-)
And I would have to think that it belonged to warrior/chieftain of greater than average "nobility", since everybody and his brother was a Mycenaean noble back in those days. :-)

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec, 2005 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Cooksey wrote:
And I would have to think that it belonged to warrior/chieftain of greater than average "nobility", since everybody and his brother was a Mycenaean noble back in those days. :-)


This is only relevant if the Dendra panoply was unique and not routinely won by the Mykenaian elite. There have been other fragments of the same type of armour found on other sites and the Linear B evidence also supports is wider use. If the example found at Dendra was meant for royalty it would have been far more richly decorated. Regarding the Trojan War the armour worn by Phyleides [Iliad, 15.529-33] is likely a Dendra-style cuirass.
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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
Joined: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
John Cooksey wrote:
And I would have to think that it belonged to warrior/chieftain of greater than average "nobility", since everybody and his brother was a Mycenaean noble back in those days. :-)


This is only relevant if the Dendra panoply was unique and not routinely won by the Mykenaian elite. There have been other fragments of the same type of armour found on other sites and the Linear B evidence also supports is wider use. If the example found at Dendra was meant for royalty it would have been far more richly decorated. Regarding the Trojan War the armour worn by Phyleides [Iliad, 15.529-33] is likely a Dendra-style cuirass.


I didn't say it was completely unique. :-)

And all royalty weren't exactly created equal in those days. Somehow, I doubt that crafty Odysseus (from a very poor kingdom) could have afforded the same kit as Agamemnon, in the days before the war.

Sometimes it is really hard to reconstruct period behaviors and patterns from archaeological evidence and inference.
Especially when the textual sources for the period in question are somewhat "iffy" on the details, like the Homeric (and other) tales.
Same goes for my peculiar field of interest . . . . . .
How does one reconcile the fact that Herodotus (who actually did some early "field-work" in Cherson) stated that the Scythians never wore metal armor, when Scythian graves are chock full of the stuff? Did the Scyths just bury all this stuff as elaborate grave offerings, or did good ol' Herodotus just not see any heavily armored warriors in the trading towns he visited?
Brings up lots of questions, like "how do you define an elite?" or "what constitutes an elite in a given socio-cultural context?"

Good discussion, tho.

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Mark Eskra




Location: Hillsboro Illinois
Joined: 14 Jun 2006

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jun, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: carrying your shield or on it?         Reply with quote

Irish (or close) saying they were going to come back carryng their shields or on them...given average probable body weight, on them would be 200 lbs. Unless you have a dragon, a 200 lb shield is out of the question.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jun, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: carrying your shield or on it?         Reply with quote

Mark Eskra wrote:
Irish (or close) saying they were going to come back carryng their shields or on them.

This is attributed to a Spartan mother talking to her son before battle.
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Mark Eskra




Location: Hillsboro Illinois
Joined: 14 Jun 2006

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu 15 Jun, 2006 8:12 am    Post subject: appreciate the heads up         Reply with quote

Thanks-i was miss informed-blame Morgan Llewellen (I think i spelled that right), author
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