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Benjamin H. Abbott
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 Posted: Sat 13 May, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Again, from what I understand Silver is decidedly not a big fan of dagger in-fighting, as it has even more of a propensity to end badly for both parties than the italianated rapier fencing he so vehemently despises. However, a dagger mounts a much better parry vs. the cut than the buttery-soft flesh of your soon-to-be-severed apendage. |
Uh, Silver didn't like parrying with the dagger, especially not against cuts, but he certainly suggested using it when the other guy comes too near: "Also if he be so foolehardye to come to the cloze, then you may guard with your sword and stabb with your dagger, and then fly out safe."
Note that that's when the other guy has a dagger too. A man with single sword against a man with sword and dagger is just asking to be stabbed. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather stab and fly out than get involved in grapple I might lose. As Silver says, "That all maner of double weapons, or weapons to be used with both handes, have advantage against the single Rapier or single Sword, there is no question to be made."
So, technically, according to Silver, even the rapier and poiniard has the advantage against the single sword.
| Quote: | | As far as I know, Even in the late renisance, when rapier and dagger was in its prime, Sword and dagger would not be a battlefield combo. Troops carried both, but the dagger would usually be hung on the right side, to be drawn in close quarters, and used on its own. |
Do any manual actually address this? Do they say that the sword and dagger aren't to be used together? I don't recall ever seeing anything one way or the other.
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Josh Brown
Location: Renton, WA Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun 14 May, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | Quote: | | Again, from what I understand Silver is decidedly not a big fan of dagger in-fighting, as it has even more of a propensity to end badly for both parties than the italianated rapier fencing he so vehemently despises. However, a dagger mounts a much better parry vs. the cut than the buttery-soft flesh of your soon-to-be-severed apendage. |
Uh, Silver didn't like parrying with the dagger, especially not against cuts, but he certainly suggested using it when the other guy comes too near: "Also if he be so foolehardye to come to the cloze, then you may guard with your sword and stabb with your dagger, and then fly out safe." |
Ok, good point -the dagger is considered an insufficient defense against a blow compared to the buckler or sword, and Silver actually only advocates the dagger to "cross" an opponents sword, setting it aside to to make way for an assault; either after evading and attack with short sword as the blade "lies spent', or to cross the opponents sword after having closed to a cross with short swords or warded an attack from a long sword or rapier in order to free your own sword for an attack (but then only if the dagger is hilted or you wear a gauntlet).
| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | Quote: | | As far as I know, Even in the late renisance, when rapier and dagger was in its prime, Sword and dagger would not be a battlefield combo. Troops carried both, but the dagger would usually be hung on the right side, to be drawn in close quarters, and used on its own. |
Do any manual actually address this? Do they say that the sword and dagger aren't to be used together? I don't recall ever seeing anything one way or the other. |
I think the main point of the debate has become the fact that few manuals on battlefield combat do mention the use of a dagger - was the assumption simply that anyone carrying a sword would have the sense to carry a buckler at his hilt to use in concert with it, that the use of a dagger was self-explanatory, or was there any sort of tactical disdvantage that might be had by using a dagger over having a free hand? Given that the dagger seems to be well-regarded as a companion weapon to the sword for civillian use by the mid-to-late renaissance, and sometimes mentioned as preferable or superior to sword alone, I would find it doubtful that it would be the latter reason - while unarmored personal combat and battlefield fighting have some differences, I am not aware of any that would explicitly rule out the dagger - my only conjecture might be that the dagger might have been left out for some idea of ease of training. After all, most manuscripts regarding fighting in battle would be most aimed towards preparing soldiers for battle woul address sound, straightforward tactics that could be addressed for training purposes. Most authors I am aware of who addressed the use of sword and dagger, or other companion weapons, advocated the mastery first of sword alone, with reasons such as the complexity of learning to use two weapons in concert or that the student might be deficient of understanding the sword alone if they used an additional weapon - as a 'crutch' if you will. Additionally, it seems that the sword was generally considered a much more sure defense than was the dagger. Might it the be plausible to say that the dagger may have been omitted for reason that the complexity of, and time required for learning to use sword and dagger together might have, in the eyes of a military man, outwayed the benefits? The reason for the use of the dagger with sword in the civillian manuals would then be thrown into question, except perhaps for the fact that unarmored combat was considered much more inherently risky (according to Fiore, at least) and the dagger became viable for providing the best possible defense in a style of combat that was both more perilous and which might have been expected to take longer to learn anyway?
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Tue 16 May, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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As far as battlefield uses of sword and dagger go, that's supposedly what Francisco Pizarro fought with at the Battle of Cajamarca. More of a massacre, really, but I still think it counts. That was 1533, well before Silver's time.
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