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Joachim Schoelkopf
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 Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: Celtic LaTene scabbard construction ? |
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Does somebody have more information on celtic LaTene scabbard construction? I mean specially authentic iron or bronze scabbards. I am happy for any hints how the sheet metal is fixed together and how the chape/crest is made.
Thanks and greetings from Switzerland
Joachim
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Folkert van Wijk
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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You quys are more then welcome Russ and Joachim
Especialy profesional scabbard builders like you Russ, because I would love to see someone produce such a scabbard... 
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Joachim Schoelkopf
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| Posted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanx alot Folkert. Was away for more than an week!
I still have a question concerning the chape! Is it cast? or is it forged? How is the groove made?
Is it maybe bent fron a thicker piece of sheetmetal with some additional soldering and shaping?
Thanks for any comments
Best wishes
Joachim[/img]
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Thirts of all, I am no expert in this, so please if anyone could gif more detailes or have any corrections, please do...
Considering the Chape: I think that both metods would have bin used, especialy the Bronze and early chapes seme to have bin cast the later and or iron ones could have bin hammerd to shape, i quess this pretty much depents on the kind op shape you want. The kind that is showen in the drawing would have bin hammerd if you ask me...
Considering the soldering I don't know but I also would like to know that to.
My question in general would be: From what time period did they start to solder things..?
Ore is this just a modern infention??
Folkert...
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Dan Crowther
Location: Valley Falls, NY Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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The best book to explain and show LaTene scabbards is:
"Finds from the Site of La Tene: Scabbards and the Swords Found in Them" Volumes 1 & 2
by JM de Navarro
Oxford University Press: London 1972
ISBN: 019725909
After reading this book I was STUNNED to learn that the MAJORITY of scabbards were iron NOT a non-ferrous metal. Also, the level of decorative detail was INCREADABLE.
Dan Crowther - aka Gobae
Historic Strides Blog
Ancient Celtic Clans
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Eric L.
Location: Netherland Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Why would they have chosen metal instead of wood?
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Dan Crowther
Location: Valley Falls, NY Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Wed 15 Feb, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure.
Let alone, why would they have choosen iron and not copper or bronze?
If the current thinking, that iron was rare (because of ore availability and smelting technology) is true, is this simply another example of those weathy enough to own a sword flaunting their prestige?
Dan Crowther - aka Gobae
Historic Strides Blog
Ancient Celtic Clans
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Joachim Schoelkopf
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| Posted: Fri 17 Feb, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Dan, I have the book, at least the first part at the moment from a library, but there is little information on potential chape construction. I think I will forge it out of an iron band, ca 3mm thick.
Why iron?
At that time, iron had the image of being novel and innovative. Even fibulae were of iron at least for men! There were few scabbards out of bronze and some of mixed construction: iron/bronce, but clearly the vast majority was iron with beautiful ornaments and we guess nicely polished. See the beautiful reconstruction example below. Source: The review section of this website
Regards
Joachim
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Wed 22 Feb, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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The vast bulk of celtic scabbards are iron, and while I don't know about how novel it was across the time span, I think there it may be a fair assumption to say that iron was something of a prestige metal.
Construction, clearlt the chape stock was forged, but the fine details and volumes you see on these pieces would indicate fine filework, tiny cold chisels, burnishers, and high degrees of polishing (tools for this sort of fine work have been found in a number of celtic sites). These chapes are too precise and delicate, as well as crisply executed to be "straight from the forge" IMO
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David Lindberg
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| Posted: Wed 22 Feb, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps the use of iron in places where it seems unusual to us might coincide with the current fad surrounding the use of titanium and such things? Could a future archaeologist examine a pocketknife and spend time fretting and formulating theories to explain the seemingly purposeless titanium coating on the blade?
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Joachim Schoelkopf
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| Posted: Fri 24 Feb, 2006 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Nathan. You are confirming what I imagined. However I didn't mean "novel" in absolute form, but with respect to bronze.. Today we may think that bronze and brass are colourwise more handsome as iron, bat as David wrote, it might have had kind of a masculine hightech flavour as nowadays titanium or maybe magnesium alloys have....!?
best wishes
joachim
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 24 Feb, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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It might also be simply for practical reasons. Working with bronze is a completely different skill then forging iron. Especially bronze sheet metal working is a very difficult skill to master. So there might have been very few people who could do it. Iron lends itself much better for turning into sheet AFAIK. Bronze has to be cast first in a solid blank. Any shrinkage porosity, pits or other irregularities will make it unusable to turn into sheet. Then it needs to be hammered down cold, as it's brittle when hot. Bronze workhardens quickly, so it's very easy to overdo it and hit a crack. Then you have to start allover again. The bronze has to be annealed regularly as well, which gets more and more difficult as the sheet becomes thinner and larger. When at brought to the temperature necessary to anneal it, it will fall apart at the slightest touch. Iron is a lot more forgiving in that respect. Bronze with a smaller quantity of tin will be easier to work with though, but it will give a less attractive colored bronze, which will turn dull brown quickly. Also to be kept in mind that most bronze probably wouldn't have been suitable for sheet metal working in the first place, due to lead contents. Another reason could be that iron just happened to be more available. Iron was needed for the swordblades, and lots of other tools, so the smith would have a good supply of iron to work with. So a smith would have iron, and the skill to work it. Whether he had the bronze and the skill to turn it into sheet and eventually scabbards is not necessarily the case.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 24 Feb, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: | | It might also be simply for practical reasons. Working with bronze is a completely different skill then forging iron. Especially bronze sheet metal working is a very difficult skill to master. So there might have been very few people who could do it. Iron lends itself much better for turning into sheet AFAIK. Bronze has to be cast first in a solid blank. Any shrinkage porosity, pits or other irregularities will make it unusable to turn into sheet. Then it needs to be hammered down cold, as it's brittle when hot. Bronze workhardens quickly, so it's very easy to overdo it and hit a crack. Then you have to start allover again. The bronze has to be annealed regularly as well, which gets more and more difficult as the sheet becomes thinner and larger. When at brought to the temperature necessary to anneal it, it will fall apart at the slightest touch. Iron is a lot more forgiving in that respect. Bronze with a smaller quantity of tin will be easier to work with though, but it will give a less attractive colored bronze, which will turn dull brown quickly. Also to be kept in mind that most bronze probably wouldn't have been suitable for sheet metal working in the first place, due to lead contents. Another reason could be that iron just happened to be more available. Iron was needed for the swordblades, and lots of other tools, so the smith would have a good supply of iron to work with. So a smith would have iron, and the skill to work it. Whether he had the bronze and the skill to turn it into sheet and eventually scabbards is not necessarily the case. |
Sort of makes me wonder about Bronze breast plate and helmets and how these would have been very expensive as I assume that they would be as or even more work / skill intensive than the size of metal sheet needed for a long and narrow metal scabbard.
Work hardening info would also make a good topic as I have an Albion bronze sword that could be made better work hardening the edges. I haven't risked trying not knowing how brittle the specific alloy of bronze of this sword is. 
Good to know that heating the bronze is the last thing one should do if one wants to avoid the sword flying into small pieces. I remember heating up a piece pure copper to red heat and seeing it shatter with a light hammer blow.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sort of makes me wonder about Bronze breast plate and helmets and how these would have been very expensive as I assume that they would be as or even more work / skill intensive than the size of metal sheet needed for a long and narrow metal scabbard. |
Yup, these were very expensive items for their time, definately not for everyone. My own country (Netherlands) was relatively poor in bronze. As a result, such high end pieces as bronze armour, helmets or shields are not found here. The first time bronze sheet artifacts start to appear is in the early iron age. These are the bronze situlae (large kettles), such as the one from the king of Oss.
| Quote: | Work hardening info would also make a good topic as I have an Albion bronze sword that could be made better work hardening the edges. I haven't risked trying not knowing how brittle the specific alloy of bronze of this sword is.
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I'd highly recommend against it. From what I've heard, the in these swords cracks very easily.
| Quote: | | Good to know that heating the bronze is the last thing one should do if one wants to avoid the sword flying into small pieces. I remember heating up a piece pure copper to red heat and seeing it shatter with a light hammer blow. |
That's odd, as pure copper should be forgable at high temperatures. It's the tin contents that makes it brittle. Up to roughly 6-7% tin contents it can be forged (though the more tin, the more difficult it gets), but above that it's too brittle.[/quote]
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that it was lack of skill with bronze which kept it from being used for scabbards in the La Tene era. Thropughout the La Tene phases the celts are still using sheet bronze to make a marvelous range of artictic items, from cauldrons to bucket fittings to repousse panels and bands, to helmets, all the way up to the Roman era. Sheet bronze items can be found in the same grave sites as swords in iron scabbards.
I'm not sure why not so much bronze (with exceptions like many North British sword scabbards and the Irish Lisnacrogher/Bann scabbards), but it may well have been either status of some kind, the old technology v. new technology", or simply it was not the artistic convention that was used any more.
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This is a standard topic
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