[Laloë Franck]

Hello of all

One generally thinks that the two-handed swords are late.
However, the sword of Brout (in Ossétie) is a Alaine weapon of the end of IVe century after J.C whose handle measures 34cm! The warriors of Alains elite were "cataphractaires". They thus were very well protected. One can think that they could thus fight with a two-handed sword. It was not the case of the people which used shields.

What think about it?

[Dominic Dellavalle]

[Felix Wang]

There are a very few hints of two-handed swords before the High Middle Ages. Tacitus, I believe, does talk about the Sarmatians as using lances and swords with both hands (posted previously by me on Swordforum), although the text is not detailed.

[Peter Johnsson]

Hello Laloë,

Could you possibly post a picture of this sword?
A drawing froma publication perhaps?
A photo would be great...

Long tangs on roman era swords can be a result of big pommel/guard. 34 cm seems very long though!
Spathae can have tangs in excess of 20 cm and still have a grip that is only about 10 cm.

Interesting!
I would like to learn more about this. I know very little about swords from this period and area.
It would be very surpricing to see a straight double edged sword from this early period with a two handed hilt.
Single edged swords is another matter.
We have the falx and related weapons that can be a mix between polearm and sword.

[Laloë Franck]

I am realy sorry, I don't have a photo. I have a drawing in a book but my scanner is broken down! Here the reference of the book (in French):

Armes et guerriers barbares au temps des grandes invasions.
autor: Iaroslav Lebedynsky
édition: Errance

If I find an image, I promises to you to be sent it!

-Franck-

[Laloë Franck]

[Adam Bodorics]

The dacian falx is a sword IMO, and is two-handed for sure... And was quite frequent, at least frequent enough to force the widespread use of manica... And it's very, very hard for me to beleive that one and only one nation used such beasts.

And (even as earlier than this, I think) those stupid gladiators tried out a lot of designs, so I wouldn't be suprised at something resembling a 16th century Indian twohander.

[Caleb Hallgren]

[Adam Bodorics]

Sorry, smiley left off... gladiators are far from stupid...
Well, I don't remember any gladiator type fighting with axe, but somewhere on my drive I have a picture of one... from a mosaic, not from a modern reconstruction drawing. And I don't recall a specific type using the drusus, either...
So I mean that they were playing with ideas, some remained in use, and some were forgotten...
(((but my favourite area is the near east, especially in the 14-17th cent, so feel free to correct me. )))

[Laloë Franck]

Thank you with all for your answers here a drawing for the famous sword (all on the right). I point out that his handle measures 34cm, that is to say 13,38 inches!

[Laloë Franck]

A photo of this strang sword...

[Jared Smith]

There are a few pretty enticing clues for believing in longswords with long grips during the 14th century.

Liechtenauer taught in the mid 1300's (born around 1320?) He based his version on international travel study of techniques already developed and practiced by other experts. Students actually wrote many texts about his style of swordsmanship, so it is credible that they modified or changed his original opinion of sword grip over a few decades after he died.

Whatever the case, that school recommended a sword long enough for the pommel to reach the arm pit, and a grip with enough room to place both hands on with a definate gap in between (some interpret this as both hands on the grip without covering the pommel so that pommel strikes can quickly be done with no injury to the hand.) Artwork from a wide variety of sources and time periods is very consistent with the image this gives.

However, surviving specimens datable to this era are very rare. Not non-existant though.

I have theorized (have zero credentials or authority to assert this, but remain very interested in the answer) that rarity of surving specimens could be due to a variety of reasons;

Actual use may have been primarily for training and unarmored dueling in the early 14th century. It was described as a "foundation" weapon and technique for training with both polearms and other types of swords.

IMHO cavalry would have preferred hand and a half grips. Long grip swords may have been used more by mercenaries on foot, and perished in battle.

Blade damage and poor survival rate may apply to these types of swords. Speed and force possible with this type of grip increases. Lancelot Chan's video of obvious damage/tip deformation (Albion Brescia Spadona) resulting from hitting a pig leg resting on a cardboard box using only mild sparring strokes is something people should see if they have not already. This is not a particularly long grip length (8"? ) sword, but it is pretty obvious what its design can do, and what toll is taken on the tip after gentle use.

[Bill Grandy]

[Jared Smith]

Yes, I misread the topic.... Sorry

I also am dependent on other's translations and discussion of the historical texts, and percieve a bit of debate on what was meant.

A separate thread on early development and popularity of long grip, two handed use of longswords would be appreciated, at least by me!

[Peter Johnsson]

Thank you so much!

This is completely fascinating.
This made my day, and I will now have problem sleeping.

Having thought about this there are a few other examples in art showing long gripped straight swords from the 4th or 5th C.
This however is something completely diffrent! How refreshing and inspiring.

Best regards
Peter

[Jonathon Janusz]

Please forgive some of my questions - I am not very well versed in swords from this era. . .

I assume the photo is of the sword sheathed? If so, is it stuck in there or are we fortunate enough to have a few pictures of the blade [crosses fingers ]?

Is the hilt assembly complete or is it missing some components [to my eye, it looks complete]? If so, I was thinking that, proportionately, this sword appears to balance similarly to Japanese swords - by that I mean that the blade is balanced mostly internally and by the position of the "guard" or placement of the hand on the hilt rather than relying on a pommel as a counterbalance. [Even further conjecture. . .] In regards to blade thickness, this would suggest that this sword could have been made thicker/heavier than its single-hand contemporaries creating a weapon less one that is a slicing/cutting sword and more one that could chop/cleave with an authority I haven't heard or seen generally in discussion of swords from this era?

This is a sword I could see even a reasonably armoured man being afraid of when under attack from horseback. . .

[Laloë Franck]

Well, I will do what I can. I speak very badly English.
The blade is completely rusted. There remains only the trimming because it is out of gold.
It is the sword of a Alain lord. It was thus a heavy rider (it is certain!). The Alain heads carried armours made up of scales, the "cataphractes"...

[Adam Bodorics]

Do we know ANYTHING about blade lenght? Just because it does look like a simplified Indian twohander... which would mean that I have another crazy theory proved.

[Peter Johnsson]

[Peter Johnsson]

After looking through the first things that were at hand I found two examples of long gripped spathae illustrated in Osprey´s Warrior series: "#9. Late Roman Infantry man AD 236-565" and "#72. Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284"

In the first is printed a photo of the famous relief in Venice of Emperor Diocletian (AD 284-305) with his coemperors. All four guys have the same long gripped spathae with eagle head pommels (I´ve always wondered about those strange swords: never knew of any similar weapons from anywhere else).
Interestingly, you can make out long panels at the top of the scabbards that remind strongly of the garnet decorated panel at the top of the scabbard of the sword that is the focus of this thread...
I would also say that the size and proportions of Diocletian´s sword is spot on!

The second picture is a drawing made by Steven D P Richardson of a gravestone of a legionary from Sparta who served in Caracalla´s Spartan cohort AD 212-217. The gravestone is in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens.
Not much detail can be made out of the sword other than general size and proportions: very close to the archaeological find.
It is interesting to note that we have here a third version of hilt type: kidney shaped pommel, much like that on a regular short gripped spatha and a stubby guard. Apart from the long grip, it looks rather like the run of the mill spatha hilt.

Diocletian came from Illyria, corresponding to former Yogoslavia, while the legionary came from Sparta...
Do we have an eastern europe/balkan origin here?
This is all new to me. I would like to learn more!
Any input is much appreciated!