[Folkert van Wijk]

I reasently purchased two small spear heads that I intent to use for making javelins (trowing spear)
Now I wonder if there are any specifications for a javelins, weight, balance, lenght, sort of wood etc.?

I understand that the favored weight depends upon the strength of the one who trowes them.
And offcourse upon the distanse he wants to trow them.

But I quess there neats also to be some sort of ballance that keeps the iron point forward during the flyed.
And there also neats to be some impact, that makes it effective somehowe.
Lighter or havier wood types would change that I quess...?

And the length of the pole? Is there a calculation for, that incorporates the wielders arm or body length...?

questions questions....

Folkert

[C. Stackhouse]

I'm not sure about any specific formulas regarding the construction of a javelin, but if you are going to make one add a buttcap. The addition of this piece will increase penetration power.

[Sean Flynt]

I've seen historic artwork showing shafts tapered toward the head, and I recently saw two early 20th c. Irish javelins with barrelled shafts (narrow at each end, swelling in the middle). Length seems to be between four and five feet. Some are fletched, some are not.

[Shane Allee]

Hey Folkert,

I would say it depends on what you are going for. Full on javelins would have been balanced one way, where as a smaller spears that could be thrown a different way. With the javelins I made here http://www.ironagearmoury.com/javelins.htm, the thickest part and area where it started tapering both ways was around 3/4 to 2/3 of the total length. I varied it based on the head weight, and to get the balanced slightly different. The reason I went with different colors was because each one is balanced different for different distances. Making these really changed my out-look on the effectiveness and potential range you can get out of them. The shorter style of spears you are not going to have the weight forward taper, or at least not anywhere near that extent. Butt caps for these would be more possible, but I would say avoid them on the javelins. Gourney could probably give you some ideas if I remember right.

Shane

[Folkert van Wijk]

Thanks Shane and others for the info.

My idea is to have them for the shorter throwing kind of javelin.
I probably will start with something tapering also, I like that, it looks like there has put in some thoughts then.

The heads I have are 235 and 204 gr. And they do look a fare bit bigger then the ones you have shane.
That would mean I have to mount them on a heavier and/ore longer shaft I quess.
How long are your javelin heads..?
The total lengt looks something like 150 cm?

The "235 gr." head of mine is 24 cm long (in total) and has a socket of 25mm wide and 11 cm long.
This one has a nice midrib, that explanes the extra wight...

The other is 21,5 cm long with a socket of 30 mm wide 10 cm long.
Mounting this on a tapering pole means i need a pole of at least 35 or 40 mm...

Shane could you tell me wat wood you used?
I have test mounted the "204 gr." head on a (I think) pine kind off wood but that feels to light.
I will buy something of asswood I think...

I will see if I can pute some pictures up here...

[Shane Allee]

Hey Folkert...

I was out of town when you asked about them and it took a few days after I got back to remember this post. Over all mine are about 130cms and the heads are three inches long. If you look at this picture Nate has some about the same length, but with a larger sized head on the right. Then also he has the two longer and bigger ones.


As far as the wood, I just used some small hardwood handles from the home improvement store. Maybe for a small broom, I'm not sure....whatever they would be too short for me to use for their intended purpose. *G* One I know is red oak, the others I am pretty sure are just white oak. You can even feel that the red oak is heavier in the hand, so it was tapered a bit differently. Ash, beech, alder, or white oak would probably be my choices if I could have my pick. After working some ash, I'm a pretty firm believer in it anymore. After a hunt in the woods for spear shafts over break I am also pretty convinced that you would take a variety of things as long as it was an available hardwood that was straight, the straight seems to be the tricky part though.

Shane

[Steve Grisetti]

Since the thread title references "dynamics", this brief discussion on sport javelin aerodynamics might be of interest.

[Folkert van Wijk]

[Shane Allee]

Just not doing a good job keeping up with this topic. The wrap covers both the socket and shaft, helping to secure things and make a smooth transition. I don't recall what the wrap was, it is either hemp or gute.... one of the course plant fibers, which was all that I was really after. A nice linen or wool yarn wrap would have worked as well, I just didn't have either handy and rather than use regular thread or yarn. The binding was covered in hide glue as I wrapped it, then a colored hide glue over the top after it was wrapped.

I have it on my mind that I will pick up about six more javelin heads off from ebay sometime or another, I just know that I really don't have the time to work on them anytime soon. Although it probably wouldn't take more than an afternoon or two to do the mounting, they would need a bit of grinding to get them right.

Shane

[Peter Johnsson]

On Javelins:

It is interesting to note that shafts from throwing spears were preserved in the Nydam find.
They are of ash and have nice line engravings in the last few inches of wood towards the head. The decorations are not unlike some found on viking spear head sockets a few centuries later.

The shafts taper slightly towards the head and more strongly towards the butt end. They sometimes have remains of a loop for one or two fingers secured at the thickest part. The use of such loops on throwing spears is depicted in art from many different time periods and places.
On others there is nails or cord wrap to mark the place to grip the shaft when throwig. You canse examples of theat to the right in the pic attached.
Depicted in the original publication of the find is one complete throwing spear with head and shaft intact together. It is interesting to note that the shaft is actually slightly thicker than the socket of the head. I wonder if this is for strength, or some other reason?

-Shane: I can see there is reason to add wrapping for securing the parts together, but I have never seen this in finds or depicted in art.
Was it for reason of extra security you decided to do this, or were there some other reason?
Just curious.

[Bob Gresh]

Peter:

Regarding bindings at the socket of javelins, here is an example from Irish heraldic art of an Irish dart with what may be bindings of this sort. Not a direct source, but Irish heraldry was adopted in the 17th century,at a time when the memory of the Irish dart was quite fresh. I had thought the yellow binding around the socket of the head might be bronze wire added for weight right behind the head. But perhaps it is cord binding. Some of you may be interested in a related thread of discussion at myArmoury under the topic "Irish Arms and Armour".

Bob Gresh

[Peter Johnsson]

Thanks Bob!

(...And thank you for a very well supplied envelope with material! It arrived just yesterday!)

That is a very clear picture. Heraldic images would have limited value as reference for actual constructions, but can still serve a purpose.
This seems to hint at some actual design.
To me it would seen that wrapping the shaft/socket of a socketed spear is unusual. I have never seen something that suggests that in surviving marterial. That does not mean it was not done. I will also say that javelins have never been my primary focus.

If the javelin head is of the tanged type, and not socketed type, a wrapping or reinforcing of the shaft would be needed.
Tanged javelin heads are not the most common type, I think. From time to time you can find them, however.
There are a few in the danish bog material. I have no idea of what the irish material looks like.

I will read the thread on Irish arms again and see what I could learn about this.


Thanks again!
Peter

[Folkert van Wijk]

Thanks guys for al the great info.

Here are (like I "promised" before) my new spearheads.
The two smaller ones I intent to make trowing javelins with,
And the big one I verry resently reseved, whas made by a Dutch smith who made this one for me, according to a drawing from the gournay book, that I scaned and scaled to the actual size for him.

Cheers!

[Shane Allee]

Well I have been putting off posting until I hoped to be able to dig through some research, but that just isn't looking like it will happen for a bit. The main reason I wrapped these was from a functional standpoint, although it wasn't something I planned at the beginning of the project. These large cast arrow heads have the sockets drilled out, and don't really have the depth that a forged socket would have. Since I planned to have these to throw I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't loose the head. With wrapping them I was more or less falling back on what I have seen from others and a few things I remember seeing myself. Maybe Nate can add in some when he gets back from vacation.

The two examples I can remember off hand that I am pretty confident would have been wrapped in some way are a small bronze throwing spear and a socketed roman throwing spear. Both of these spears had grooves cut into the first couple centimeters of the socket. In both cases it didn't appear that these grooves were cut in as decoration, but rather a functional aspect. Not sure if it is a related type of thing, but with some of the celtic spears we sometimes see a single deeper groove. Pretty commonly it is in the same location as the pin in the socket, although there are examples above, below, and on unpinned spears. A couple spears look as if they might have had a wire band placed in their grooves.

Just got a article from Nate today on javelin throwing that looking like it will cover bits like the fixed throwing loops and various wrapped styles for throwing. Should be an interesting read if I can get the time.

Shane

[Folkert van Wijk]

What About (leather) wrappings on spear shafts (not the trowing kind of spear) at the place where one is suposed to hold his weapon.
Is there any early evidence of that?
It would look cool, but I am affraid it's not going to be verry autentic on ironage weapons isn't it?
Lately I saw a drawing of an Iberic all iron spear that has a very defined spot that was given a grip by making it clearly thicker and with thicker edges...

Folkert

[Shane Allee]

I don't remember anything right off hand about leather wrapping in the grip area, but that isn't really my thing. I like to switch up between an overhand and underhand grip, and the point of balance changes between the two. So you would have to just do one or the other unless you did a large area in the middle.

Those iberian spears are neat, but I haven't found all that much about them. So not sure how common or anything they were. Most of the time they have been folded to beat all though.

Shane

[Elling Polden]

Leather wrappings, for both spears and staffs, make little sense. A spear has no fixed point where it's held; It is slid back and forth in the hand/hands to adjust range.
The same with staffs: Half the point is being able to slide them back and forth.

As such, there is no great call for a "better grip" on the spear.

[Nathan Bell]

Hi all,

A few comments in no particular order.

I think that Folkert's javelin size it would be good to have a haft about 5' or up to his height, these are something on the order of "heavy" javelins. I would still barrel the shaft, though, it seems to do wonders for balance, though with these larger sized javelins you may go with having much less taper on the "head" end.

Shafts for these, at least from British find material do not have to be ash. You could go with ash, but also some with willow, poplar and alder have been used in the iron age. Again this is dependent on what weight you want and how stout you wish it to be, keeping in mind the stouter, the less range.

Wrappings: I believe there may be enough precedent to see some wrapping at the base of the socket, though not always. As Shane mentioned, there are some iron age ones with groove in line or below the rivet holes, a number of them also have inscribed decoration much finer and more detailed above this area, lending to the idea of function rather than more decoration. (esp. can be seen with the Carpathian basin weapons, where illustrated). My opinion, some of the "better" javelins are ofetn the nicer quality and better decoration---these are weapons that though thrown are not seen as necessarily disposable, and would likley be retrieved if used. Bearing in mind again the "having" of them is status as well if they get used or not.

Another angle is from Irish Iron Age sagas there is mention of specific javelins with names and so forth. These would be kept and retrieved. I would think the extra measure of securing the socket would be used here, where you want to keep the head of a favorite weapon. Also fromt he Irish saga angle, mention is made of "red" and "yellow" javelins. Now this could be paint or decoration. However, I am tempted by the idea that the wrap at socket base could be coloured this way, and also help identify one's own stock---certain color for weight etc. so one could quickly tell which "iron" from the javelin bundle one was using.

Another view on socket wraps: the native British (ie Insular non-continental) spears and javelins both often have *no* rivet holes int he sockets. Some of these are of size and shape to make it clear they are *not* disposable weapons. Thus, one would need an extra measure of fit to keep the valuable iron head---resin in the socket, binding at the base, etc.

Also, where there is a split socket in the spear or javelin (not unkown in the Iron age finds, though rarer), it is functionally helpful to clench the socket with bidning near the base. If one uses something like sinew or rawhide, the wrap is put on tightly, wet, then as it dries it becomes both hard and shrinks to secure even better


Amentae both fixed and loose are wonderfully valuable and greatly increase range and penetration. I hope to write more on this later, too long in this post now as is.

Steven Peffley would be a welcome addition to this conversation, esp. with respect to amentum use and throwing, including the atatl, etc. He has tons of experience and practice with these things

[Folkert van Wijk]

Thanks a lot folks.
I will go and barrel my javelin pole pretty soon.

And as for the bigger spear I will try to make it's shaft tapper towards the tip to get the ballance point more to the back.

For the grip wrapping, I think what Elling wrote makes sens.
On the other hand, if you use the spear in combination with a big Celtic Shield, you have no choise then to hold the spear in one hand, and most likely then hold it some where at it's piont of ballance. Otherwise it will be pretty tyring to hold the point aimed and maneuvre it around all the time...

Folkert

[Elling Polden]

Most of the time, you will hold it underhand, with the end of the spear rested under your elbow, or couched. You will also have a lot better control over the tip of your spear. Exactly where depends on the range to your opponent. If he is close, you shorten your grip, if you are attacking someone far down the line, you slide it as far forward as you can.
Our one handed spears are typicaly about 220cm long, with a 2 cm thick shaft.
Historic one handed spear sockets are quite narrow. The spear shafts where clearly seen as highly expendable; No matter how thick it is, you will have to replace it if it takes a proper hit. they are thus quite light.

The overhand grip can be used for throwing or close combat, but has much shorter range, and is more tiring to maintain.

Basically, you would use the underhand grip in the line, and the overhand in one on one combat. (though drawing a backup weapon would probably be a better idea)