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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Very slick work Rod.

Greyson Brown wrote:
Thanks, I have wondered about the attachment of lockets as well. Let me know how you end up going about that if you redo that, too.


Despite the fondness of sword manufacturers for putting them on every scabbard regardless of period, I'm not aware of lockets at the mouth of any scabbards before the late 17th century.

Cheers
Stephen


The are not unheard of on sword scabbards of the 14th century. There is a metal fitting at the top, anyway. If you have a copy of Arms and Armor of the Mediaeval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock, there is a very good example on page 91. The sword on the brass of Sir John d'Abernon also seems to have one (page 78, same work), as does some bloke on page 73.

Since you maintain such a late date for lockets, it may be that I do not properly understand that term, but bands of metal at or near the mouth of a scabbard appear to have been common, if not the norm, for much of the 14th century. In everything I have seen, they support the rings that were used for the upper attachment of the sword belt. A few of Albions scabbards have this feature:



-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company


Last edited by Greyson Brown on Sun 15 Jan, 2006 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 221

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, I have it all finished. It is a very secure and comfortable rig to wear. I will punch a couple more holes in the belt to tighten it up a little and then it will be set.

The rondels are silver and will look better with a bit of age on them. I expect the whole rig to wear in and bed down. Lots of leather conditioner will soften it all up. I did the dye job myself as well. The only things I didn't make are the rondels and the chape.







Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod,

I like the way you crossed the strapping back over itself. It gives it a liitle bit different look and character. Since it is related, I am going to mention that, for those who are interested, there is a thread about attaching a scabbard to its suspension system like that here.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Despite the fondness of sword manufacturers for putting them on every scabbard regardless of period, I'm not aware of lockets at the mouth of any scabbards before the late 17th century.

I believe it's very common on 16th century examples and relatively common on late 15th century examples.

I saw such scabbard lockets depicted on various effigies during my recent trip to London. I remember seeing others in portraiture.

Then of course there's the example of the Viking-era sword with the locket rusted in place that's been posted recently.


Sword of Cangrande della Scala, Italian, circa 1325

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In The Arcaeologgy Of Weapons, Oakeshott pictures a couple of 14th century type XIIs with quite a bit of hardware on the scabbards. It may have been an uncommon thing, on more pedestrian scabbards but there do seem to be examples.

Before the Vikings, the Celts were also using fittings on scabbards.

Cheers

GC
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen,

I see the sword that Nathan posted in the plates (plate 17 a & b). Were those the ones you were referring to? Were you thinking of some in the figures throughout the book?

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod,

By the way, what do you use for your leather. I assumed that you use couch leather, as was discussed in this thread, but you know what they say about "assume." A scabbard is probably still a bit in the future for me, but I am trying to gather what information I can as the opportunities arise. Thanks.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company


Last edited by Greyson Brown on Sun 15 Jan, 2006 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yup, I have the images turned off but should have groked on Nathan's caption. There is also the ballock dagger pictured a couple of pages later (21b) There is also Fig 121 The sword of Count Ekkehard effigy illustration (1260). I'm sure there are others from the same volume, i'm just skimming a bit. Certainly a type of hardware that goes way back.

In another thread, quite similar, these examples were brought forth. It may have been a case that more affluent medieval sword owners had fancier scabbards, or they are more of a continental trait in that time. I think it more likely to have been a usage/practical thing and probably more common to expensive costume (medieval period). Just my thought on it.

Cheers

GC
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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I question your inclusion of the Count of Ekkehard scabbard, that looks like the typical leather laced through the skin of the scabbard method to me. Still, you are right that lockets were obviously used, and I would be willing to believe that they were an expression of wealth in at least some cases. The 14th century was one of those periods when metal (and it doesn't seem to have always mattered the value thereof) was used to show off.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the sharpness of definition there on that figure would seem to indicate something other than leather. As it is an effigy, hard to say for sure. If you compare that to plate 9c (then look at 9b), it appears a lot more solid than a simple cord or leather reinforcement. Another, that looks metal to me, is fig.88. I don't see that one as artful depiction of leather lacing either.

More artful, perhaps, is fig. 147, the section of text describing the lockets and fittings is in this chapter. Folowing that are fig. 149, 154, 156, 158, 165, 170, 172, 175 and 178.

Then look at the frontpiece photo for the tome. While not exposed metal, we do see reinforcement under the leather. While it could be said (on other examples) that these risers are simply keeping the straps from pulling up over the mouth, even a simple binding is going to add strength.

I'm not one to greatly overestimate the "truth" of artwork but when backed by a good amount of physical evidence, some things are hard to deny. How many scabbards were thought as disposable in the first place?

Cheers

GC

GC
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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice job, Rod. I have to say, though, that with as nice of a job as you did on the buckles, doing up some lockets, rings, and strap ends would really clean the whole thing up visually. Although the wrapped leather cords are functional, I think some of the graceful lines you built into the scabbard are lost beneath them.

Keep at it; I know you can do it Happy
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Grey, I used 1mm thick veg tanned for the scabbard covering. I don't know its exact name but it is a beautiful leather that is very supple and strong. I have two very large full hides of it that I purchased on Friday. I intend to use it for 15thC long boots that I am making. The belts are 4mm thick un-dyed veg tanned that I dyed myself.

Hi Jonathon, I like the strapping Razz Wink , everyone has lockets and I wanted something period yet different for me. I am making a scabbard for my wife and I will use lockets on it. I am looking forward to having a go at making them.

I had no idea I could do this stuff Big Grin

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Very slick work Rod.


Despite the fondness of sword manufacturers for putting them on every scabbard regardless of period, I'm not aware of lockets at the mouth of any scabbards before the late 17th century.

Cheers
Stephen


You may remember these from an old SFI thread. I tend to agree with you that they were very uncommon, but it appears not completely unknown. The two swords in this picture are dated 14th century. Of course one could make the argument that these particular scabbards were built much later then the swords.... Happy

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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ, thanks for posting that picture. That is the sword I mentioned from Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight (page 91), and it is the figure 149 from Archaeology of Weapons that Glen mentioned. According to Oakeshott, those scabbard mounts can be dated with quite a bit of certainty to between circa 1310 and 1340. He doesn't specify why we can be that certain, though.

Rod, thanks for the info.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson Brown wrote:
Russ, thanks for posting that picture. That is the sword I mentioned from Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight (page 91), and it is the figure 149 from Archaeology of Weapons that Glen mentioned. According to Oakeshott, those scabbard mounts can be dated with quite a bit of certainty to between circa 1310 and 1340. He doesn't specify why we can be that certain, though.

Rod, thanks for the info.

-Grey


No problem, it might be a bit redundant at this point since apparently two threads were combined? It looks like you guys had already pointed out the 14th century connection in the other thread? In any event in the main I would have to say that I think that Stephen is probably right in that anciently occurrence of lockets was probably far less commonplace then it is on modern reproduction scabbards. Of course with only a tiny fraction of period scabbards surviving (even less then swords) anything is possible.

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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ,
I just included a link from this thread to the other and vice versa because of the similar content (I'm not a moderator, so if it was inappropriate for me to do that, just say so). Right now, with both threads active, it seems kind of redundant, but I thought it would be nice to have something to help people find both if they do a search a few months from now.

Rod,
I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. I'd like to hear any thoughts on making your first scabbard. Was there anything that was harder than anticipated? Anything that you thought would be hard, and wasn't? Anything you would do different next time?

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to know how you prepared the leather (amount of excess, approach to stretching or shrinking after sewing?)

I have attempted a similar design for an Albion Knight sword. However, I cut the dry leather based on scabbard dimensions without the cord hoping it would stretch first and then shrink over the risers. I stretched the leather as best as I could using alcohol while sewing it. After about 1 day, the back stitched seam pulled apart leaving about a 1/16 (1.5 mm) gap.

I wonder now if the better approach is to apply the leather without stretching, and then shrink it after the fact?



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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jared, I didn't really need to shrink the leather. I used contact adhesive and put it on the front of the scabbard and risers and the back of the leather. When this was tacky I put them together, pressing the leather over the risers and sort of pulling and pressing so that the leather was stretched and tight on the wood. I let this set and then moved around adding glue and pulling the leather tight.

When I cut the leather for the scabbard I made it a bit bigger then needed so I could trip it for the seam. I had about a 5mm gap that pulled tight when I sewed it.

The leather is tigh and does not move at all.

The next one I do I will only glue on the front so that when I sew it up the back it will pull the whole thing nice and tight.

I also sewed it all the way to the tip. It was such a neat job that I didn't really need the chape if I didn't want it. I think i may have fluked that bit. Big Grin

I didn't soak the leather or anything like that. I used a 1mm thick leather that is absolutely beautiful.

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Rod.
It was your post that led me to try this out. I started with the wood slats three days ago....

Drastic stretching to draw the seams togather is clearly not ideal. Some technical sites on leather suggested that you should only stretch it 3% to 5% (vegtable tanned.) In restrospect, I think I tried to stretch it 9% and ended up with something exactly in the range of what the technical sites predicted. This was calf skin, also about 1 mm thick (1.75 to 2 oz weight per yard is how the vendor described the weight/ thickness.)

I will continue to try some variations of my own. I know that with some degree of water/ wetting the leather (a friend of mine uses a hot air blower/ hair blower to do this on knife sheaths) can be made to set pretty hard (formed in place like boiled armour.) The leather in the picture is now pretty rigid (about 36 hours after I stopped sewing and wetting.) At this point, is does not matter if the rope risers come unglued, they are still trapped within the formed leather. I would say that if I had allowed just a little extra (2 to 3 mm) of leather when I cut it, it would have turned out just as I had intended.

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George C.




Location: USA
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR YOUR FIRST ATTEMPT.
CONGRATULATIONS.

JEDI GEORGE IV
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