[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Yeah, that's right. I managed to mess up my bill cutting pumpkins. Yes, I am a moron.

While I was very careful with my Cervenka backsword, I assumed the bill was too tough to worry about. Well, I managed to fumble on a downward blow from overhead and ended up striking a pumpkin with the flat of the bill's point. 3 mm of steel thick, but it bent quite a bit.

Luckily I was able to bend it back, but I'm sure the metal's weaker at that point now. After seeing that happen I don't think I'll ever hit anything with the flat of a sword.

Anyways, folks, don't me like me. Remember that edge alignment still matters very much with polearms.

[Jean Thibodeau]

OOOOOOOOPS.

So was this a vertical cut gone wrong were the blade hit with the heavily curved pointy bit and twisted out of line ?

All the force concentrated on the point when it his something hard under the pumpkin ?

Or did it bend on the pumpkin itself: Didn't know that pumpkins were that hard !

Finally, did you mean you deliberately hit with the side of the blade.

[James Aldrich]

The wily gourd claims another victim. I was just palnning on whacking some pumpkins with an A&A German Flail. Let's see the buggers damage that! I was also going to slice up a few with my Agincourt, but maybe not until I achieve serenity.

JSA

[Austin Demshar]

i swung my unknown brand halberd into a wood stump and it kinda bent the metal... lol... but it bent back. Then i threw it like a spear, and it stuck... yes... but the spike nearly broke off. Just thought id share.

[Allan Senefelder]

The top spike on polearms were not always as hard as the rest of the blade since the idea was to impale horses, a soft target. This doesn't mean that the top spike wasn't used to try and take a bite out of other things. One of the period pole arm heads (a fuschard or miltary fork) that we have shows signs of the side tines having to be straightened more than once and the main spike is a tad wavey as well(still wouldn't want to whined up on the end of it).

[Eric Nower]

I tend to agree with Allan, spike should have been used for the un-horseing part of combat. Blades, hooks, and other fun parts come into play after that.

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

[Craig Johnson]

Hello Gang

Obviously the vegetable world is rising up and developing countermeasures as test cutting becomes more popular!

Historically pole weapons are usually not heat treated. There has not been a great deal of testing done so far but what has been done shows that often the heads are iron not steel and could not be hardened if they wanted. The later the period goes the more steel may show in the pole arms and the heat treat may show up but at this point I have seen very little evidence that they were hardened at all.

This compounded with the head being on a shaft 5 to 8 foot long in most cases results in an enormous amount of force being generated on the piece when it strikes, and hopefully on the target as well. This would be another good reason to have a softer head as the force will bend and not fracture the piece.

The desire for period items to be hardened is often over exaggerated by us modern people looking back at the items with our desire to maximize and have the "best of the best of the best".

Keep well
Craig

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Interesting. Well, at least in the late 16th century, Sir Roger William wanted bills to made of good steel, though this was in reaction to the fact that most of the time they weren't made of such material, but rather just iron, and often poor quality iron. In fact, that was supposedly one reason bills got such ill fame...

[Craig Johnson]

Hey Benjamin

Yes, there are many such statements from the annuals and records of the time. In dealing with descriptive text about metallurgy from the period, one needs to remember they did not necessarily have the concept of steel and iron, and the difference there between, codified or even identified at that point. They knew there was a range of material and that some worked better than others and certain production centers created "good steel" but this is still often an iron/steel mix and the carbon content ranges over a much wider consistency than modern steels. The problem is exacerbated by translators combining such references from the specific language used by the commentator and often just applied the word steel when they may have been well aware that they were asking for something specific.

Then the fact that even if it is made of steel or steely iron, it does not mean they bothered to heat treat the piece and in the case of pole arms one would probably not care or want the piece to be.

There are a lot of reasons why and one can get very detailed in the exploration of this. But I think it is good to remember that they were a very practical and skilled bunch and they did what was needed and desired. Today we have a certain context we view these items from. It may well be different than the view they had. The result is we as modern people interested in weapons and armor may over emphasize what we think is important and sometimes we lose track of what the practical users of the day felt was important. This can hide very interesting aspects of items we would never give them credit for as well as read into such comments as "good steel" that they had heat treat in mind.

Best
Craig

[Lloyd Clark]

Remember that we broke a "perfectly good" Cold Steel Grosse Messer last year on a pumpkin - they are not to be trifled with!

I have bent a few really nice swords over the years when cutting pumpkins from horseback (well, actually I was trying to "splat" them with the flat of the blade) and I have recently come up with a good "human torso" replica by taking three large pumpkins, "staking" them together and then duct taping them tightly. I then put furniture pad around to replicate a gambeson. It took a "change of my thought process" to get the cuts into the "torso" efficiently. Now I just gotta put maille on it

[Jean Thibodeau]

Craig;

As you know I am one of the " moderns " who prefers some heat treating / hardening on my polearms as I have requested some edge hardening on my spears and pollaxe and my " custom Langue de Boeuf " .

This may not be historically correct but I still prefer being able to get a sharp edge: Too many years collecting modern fighting knives ( designing my own custom ones also ) at 60 R.C. have warped my mind and expectations I guess.

I've gotten used to the idea of edges at around 50 R.C. to be a hard enough for a decent edge while avoiding excessive brittleness, more so if the hardening is limited to the very edge with the rest at 40 R.C.

I can fully accept that historically polearms were dead soft for practical reasons and that most were battlefield weapons or peasant weapons. With my Langue de Boeuf I see it ( Fantasy I admit ) more like an imaginary situation of a polearm commissioned by a Knight from a high end maker as a personal weapon and sharper than the norm.

In any case the material qualities don't change the " look " of the weapon, so it's sort of an invisible departure from historical accuracy. I also see it finished closer to a sword finish than a cruder peasant or munitions weapon. ( Not anything close to a mirror polish, just an absence of obvious modern tool marks ! Some feeling that it is hand made not CNC NASA grade perfection is fine and gives character, so deliberate minor flaws making it look period are also O.K.

Oh, different culture / different time, but aren't Japanese polearms hardened and finished at the same level as their swords, at least with quality weapons ?

[Jean Thibodeau]

Benjamin;

Oh, I think I misunderstood exactly where the damage happened on your English Bill: Rather than the thrusting point I thought it was the top point of the axe-like part where it curves at the top. I thought you hit something hard with this point rather than the lower edge. This point would also be vulnerable to a twisting misaligned hit IMHO.

This might change the way my earlier post might be understood.

If the steel is dead soft it should be almost as strong after you bent it back than it was originally: It should take many cycles of bending / straitening before metal fatigue becomes an issue.

A heat treated one might have been more difficult to bend, but once bent and straitened the physical qualities of the hardened version would have been changed more for the worse than with the dead soft steel. ( Could be wrong here ? )

[Craig Johnson]

Hello Jean

I realize there are different design goals over the whole range of weapons. I did not mean to imply any negativity to heat treating piece by design or to say in period they could not have done so. It was just a clarification on what the goal of a replica piece maybe and how far do we step away for our modern tastes as an industry. This can be on many different levels and the quality of work and the initial design and purpose varied as much if not more in period.

I think it is valuable to look at those trends we see in the period pieces and ask why this choice. As often they are choices that would not be made by a modern person looking back with the idea that improvement and development of "better" pieces is always good, no matter what.

I hope Benjamin, or any one else, does not take it as a "it should be this way" kind of thing at all.

Best
Craig

[Jean Thibodeau]

Craig;

No offence taken at all and your explanations contrasting modern expectations and the way things were done is very interesting: Probably optimum for the actual period use in spite of my tendency to want to tinker with stuff and theoretically make them better.

I was sort of taking advantage of the opportunity to state my reasons for my preferences.

Also I was debating with myself about when to ask you for a progress report about my project.

I have been making a conscious point of NOT micromanaging the project now that we settled on the details of the project: Trying to be the best customer I can be.

Just couldn't resist the temptation to just mention my preferences again: By the way no rush with finishing the project, but around Xmas would be nice. ( Get back to me in a private E-Mail so as to not subject everybody to private business and clutter up the Forum, my bad. ) ( Sorry moderators )

( Sorry for the detour only distantly related to the topic. )

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

[Lancelot Chan]

Indeed, and so were the Chinese for the quality ones.

[Craig Johnson]

[Bob Burns]

Although I did not partake in pumpkin demolition with my weaponry, I do in fact have a prisoner in the garage awaiting the games. A 6 foot tall 2 foot by 2 foot cardboard box, as a matter of fact I will be tending to this today. I shall incorporate the Danish War Axe, German Bastard Sword, English Longsword and the Henry V sword upon said box.

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Hank Reinhardt]

Most of the German and Swiss halberds had steel edges, and sometimes they were all steel. Long points became steely iron when the axe blade got smaller and the point became more important. The later halberds meant for dress are rarely tempered. Most people don't realize that it wasn't until 1786 that it was shown that it was carbon that turned iron to steel. Hey. I'm new at this, so bear with me while I figure out how all of this works. I am not a computer person. Frankly if it gets more complicated than a wedge, I am lost. Hank Reinhardt