[Jean Thibodeau]

What happens to the fighting qualities of armour when soaking wet ? Does a gambison lose any protective qualities when saturated with water ?

As a historical, in period question: Caught in the rain at the end of a battle there is not much choice but in continuing to fight ! The next day the warriors' gambison is still wet and if he has no dry spares to use instead: Would even wearing it the next day be even possible assuming that no break from fighting was forthcoming ? Worst case scenario: The weather has dropped below freezing, so the problem become not just a question of being miserable but the chances of hypothermia or freezing to death a real possibility.

Any historical documentation about the pitfall of fighting in winter or even just really miserable Spring or Autumn weather ?

Maybe this is where using wool inside a gambison is an advantage as wool still gives protection from cold when wet as opposed to linen or cotton.

There is a whole set of other questions about armour maintenance after it has been soaked that would be relevant today for LH or other practical users as well as interesting historical questions.

How long will it take for a gambison to dry if the weather is dry and sunny and how long if humid and cold ?

Would an army dependant on armour use have their advantages neutralized by rain and cold and could this be taken advantage of by " barbarian " armies like the early Franks or German tribes, as just one example, who could just wear warm clothes with just a helm & shield and still be at their normal state of effectiveness.

Examples at different points of history could be brought forward: From Gaul versus Romans to Napoleons' French in the Russian campaign. ( Even the Germans on the eastern front in winter: Troops used to fighting in deep cold can handle it much better than troops from warm countries unfamiliar with this weather extreme. )

To summarize, I think, that these are only some of the things that could come up discussing the effects of weather on fighting effectiveness and on the use and maintenance of the equipment itself, both historically and our hobby use: Comfort, rust and rot, heat stroke or Hypothermia, protective qualities of wet armour, etc........

[George Hill]

I have heard that on some occasions the roman scutum got so wet as to loose rigidity and thereby becoming useless. I 'vaguely' recall hearing this was the case when Quintilius Varus lost those two leigons in the Teutoburg forest.

[Elling Polden]

I went to a live RPG last year, where I spent the better part of two days wearing armour. This was in western norway, in the autumn, and we had the worst rainfall in years.
The conlusion was that i was actually less cold and misserable than most. This could of course be attributed to my general cold tolerance, and exelent cape, but never the less.
I spent a year of military service in northern norway, which needless to say can be pretty cold ( -20 celcius and below..)

Woolen clothes have the wonderful quality of staying warm even when wet. A medevial soldier, in winter time, would probably wear a woolen tunic under his arming coat, if cold was a problem.
Gambesons, wet or not, gives a fair amount of shielding from the elements. The are effectively wind proof, which helps a lot. Wind chill kills. Helmets also have the admirable quality of beeing 100% water proof

Now, once you get indoors, take of all you wet clothes and shoes. Due to the laws of physics, the warmth of a fire will not make YOU any warmer until it has condensed all the water in your clothes. A lot of soldiers have suffered frostbite AFTER they have come in from the cold, because they kept their boots on.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Elling ;

Thanks for the real world experience: Much better than I imagined as far as staying alive is concerned.

From what you said it seems more comfortable than what I would have imagined.

Getting back into a gambison the next day, if it hasn't dried yet and has become very cold and clammy, and having to go outside before some body heat has had a chance to warm things up might still be ICK !

I guess we could compare notes about cold as Canada ( Québec ) can also be very cold and " humid " cold that goes right to the bone: The last couple of years we had a few Winter days that went down to minus 40 Celsius. ( By some odd coincidence minus 40 F. is the same temperature: The two scales match at this precise point. )

I can handle cold a lot better than heat personally

I would also guess that a good heavy wool cloak would keep you warm and more or less dry.

Oh, did you have to do any special maintenance on your armour and arming clothes after to keep them in good condition?

[Elling Polden]

There was a bit of rust, and leather straps do not like water very much.

And, oh, EVERYTHING is misserable when it's wet. But you survive, after a fashion.

And yes, norwegian armies fought in the winter. During the 1240 rebellion of Duke Skule, The fist battle was in January, the other just before easter.
The battle of Largs, during the 1263 expedition to scotland was in the authum, during a storm. ( A proper one. The reason there was a battle in the first place was because some norwegian ships where blown ashore...)
In these conditions beeing aboard a ship would probably be a lot worse.
(King Håkon Håkonsen did not take part in the fighting, but died of pneumonia on his way home.... )




Norwegians never freeze. We just slowly turn blue and stop moving.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Elling;

" Norwegians never freeze. We just slowly turn blue and stop moving. "

I really like that.

I would think that Winter or Fall battles would be avoided when possible: Probably why there was generally a campaign season. But then in very Northern countries a lot of the year IS Winter.

Although, Winter raids might have been good to break the monotony and I presume that farm work would be mostly finished after the crops were in ? Good time for war ( Small ones !? ) and arts and crafts.

Actually, cold is not so bad as freezing rain to deal with.

( Bad PUN ALERT ) So, heavy rains would dampen enthusiasm for choosing to have a nice little war or raid. ( Visit the neighbours and burn something down: If not too wet to burn ! )

Thanks for the replies: Very enjoyable exchange, at least for me.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Daniel Staberg]

Jean,

I can't comment on the Norwegian practice but in Sweden, Finland and the Baltic provinces of Sweden (ex-Teutonic Knights territory) winter was the preferred campaign season in a lot of instances. All those lakes, streams and rivers force over and became very useful "roads" on which armies could move rapidly. The large scale use of ski's and sledges (including sledge mounted guns at times) gave the Swedes and Finns added mobility. In 16th Century Estonia Finnish regulars on ski's intercepted and basically slaugtherd a large Russian raiding force that was foundering in the deep snow on horseback and on foot.

In wintertime the fields were harvested and the grain and other foodstuffs conviniently collected in the farms and villages, easier pickings for foragers and looters than living of the land in the summer time. during the winter the effects of plundered and burned villages would also be much greater as the effect son the populations was greater due to the lack of food and shelter in bad weather. By the brutal logic of Scandinavian warfare this in turn meant that the devasted area would no be able to support & sustain an enemy army during the coming year.

So a the leas the Swedish winter saw some large scale wars, the largest and most famous would be the Danish "Blitzkrieg" in January 1520 when Danish force totaling 15.000-20.000 men launce a rapid invasion of Sweden.

FWIW:
My personal experience of wearing padded armour in wet and cold weather is similar to Elling's, a good cloak and a hood lessend the impact of the rain most of the time, the area that caused the most trouble was the opening of the arms were the water was able to get to the interior of the gambeson much easier. The area between my hand and my elbow got wet on the inside much, much faster than the other parts. Indeed most of the time the inside of the other parts stayed dry and warm. But this was with my cloak catching most of the rain.
My solution to the wet arms problem was two fold, first I punt on a tunic made of thin wool cloth underneath the gambeson to help me stay warm (before I had only worn two linen shirts as the gambson itself is quite good at keeping me warm). Secondly I rummaged through my pack and got out a set of leather gloves with large cuffs which effectively "closed" the opening of gambesons arm when worn. Not entirely period since they are late of Swedish Army's motorcycle corps but nightwatch duty became a lot less unpleasant without the wet and cold.

/Daniel

[Jean Thibodeau]

Daniel;

When you think about it winter warfare makes a lot of sense, I would just avoid Fall which may mostly be rain.

Maybe the idea of Summer and spring being " THE " campaign season is more a Southern European or middle east tradition.

The best season may vary for cultural or weather ( Practical reasons ) in different parts of the world at different times.

I think that knowledge of the history of Scandinavian history tends to be overlooked even by those who have fair to good knowledge of European history. The culture, political system(s) fighting style and tactics are all a big " VOID " as far as my education about what sounds like very interesting history.

Any good books in English covering Scandinavian history, Ancient, Medieval, and Modern ?