Strange Two hander -- myArmoury.com

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Fri 12 Aug, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: Strange Two hander

Have anyone seen something like this. found 1928

Tvåhandssvärd med nedre hälften av klingan förlorad. Rund knapp och korplik nu deformerat parerskydd. Delar av
kavelns trä och metalltrådsbeläggning bevarade. #Mycket korroderat.

Twohanded sword with lower half of blade lost. Round pommel and raven-look now deformed crossguard. Parts of
grip wood and metaltread-surface left on. #Very rusty

I am not sure about that korplik/raven-look, can be korglik/basket-look

More info Here

Jens Nordlunde · Posted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 8:23 am Post subject:

I may be able to help you, if you have a look in Vaabenhistoriske Aarbøger, København 1968. Ada Bruun Hoffmeyer: Gammelt Jern. Also have a look at the yearbook from the same Society from 1935. Fabrikant E. A. Christensen's Vaabensamling. written by the same author, if I am not much mistaken.
I ave seen the collection years ago, and I am rather sure you will find a two hand sword like this one - only, it is not broken.

Jens

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 11:06 am Post subject:

Tack så mycket Jens!
Well i check around and that book are little here and there, but i dont find any pictures out there,
so i will see if i not can find it in town.

One funny thing happend when i search on Goggle with "Christensen's Vaabensamling"
I got one hit and I come to This Site Eek!

That must be the right place to find anything about swords. Big Grin

Jens Nordlunde · Posted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 1:13 pm Post subject:

Give me an PM and I will tell you amore about it, as I don't think it is of great intereast to the rest of the members Worried

The only thing I will show is this.

David R. Glier · Posted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject:

Oh, it's of interest alright. The vast majority of us, though, just don't have anything new to opine.

Martin Wallgren · Posted: Mon 22 Aug, 2005 12:31 am Post subject:

Alexander Ren · Posted: Mon 22 Aug, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject:

Yes, please don't continue this privately. I don't know anything about that sword so I find it very interesting.
Thanks... Alex

Martin Wallgren · Posted: Tue 23 Aug, 2005 12:50 am Post subject:

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

There is a whole family of swords belonging to the years around 1500, having rather beefy blades of Oakeshott type XX The blades are often second rate Passau production, according to Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer.
Those I´ve seen of this and similar type often have blades with some irregularities and less than perfect grinds.
A striking feature is the guard that is shaped like an intricate pretzel: a "knot" of sorts forming an open rondel.
They are invariably two handers.
Sometimes there is another type of blade, but the grip is always of generous length.
A spherical pommel seems to be the most popular choise on swords with a pretzel-shaped guard.
On those with a C-shaped guard (both arms turned towards the front) a pherical or small octagonal scent stopper is the norm.
I have handeled a few: they are normally big swords. Not something you´d call agile or quick, but defenitely powerful.

The newly found "Vätternsword" is of slightly different type, having a slimmer blade (unidentfiable, even though I suspect it is also a second rate Passau blade). My impression is that this size is more common among those swords having a C-shaped guard. I know of about half a dozed of these weapons, the Vättern sword being one of them.

I have been looking though my papers on illustrations of these; I have a few, but right too busy to do a dedicated search. I will look again.

Swords with a pretzel-shaped guard seem to be a Scandinavian thing. Long grips (25+ cm: a popular feature for big swords in Scandinavia in the late 15th C and early 16thC), rough and ready hilt work and less than top quality blades all speak for locally furbished imported blades meant for arming local troops. You see swords of similar type and size ( I know one of them has a pretzel-shaped guard) being worn by peasant soldiers in the drawings of the Landsknecht Dolnstein from the year 1504.

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Tue 23 Aug, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject:

From our friend Jens Nordlunde's book/catalog Gammelt jern 1935 by Otto Smith, reprinted 1968 by Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer.
From left to right
1. Danish ca 1450 found in outer moat Dragsholm slot/castle. (me likey Cool

)
2. Danish ca 1400 found in outer moat Dragsholm slot.
3. Italian ca 1520 from collection Franz Thill, Østrig.
4. Danish ca 1280.
5. Danish ca 1450 found in outer moat Dragsholm slot.
6. German (?) ca 1480 from collection Hans G. Leiden.

Thanks Jens and Peter!

These typ of Scandinavian Two Hander really starts to grown in to me,
all that mass and long grip they have, are brutal in some way, like a modern Berserkr or something Big Grin

This sword have been found just around that brige you can see cross over Säveån on this Map over the area of Nya Lödöse/Gamlestan
and the old road to Kungahälla/Kungälv/Bohus.

Looking forward for some pictures of pretzel-shaped guarded sword, Big Grin

Thanks Guys

Daniel Staberg · Posted: Tue 23 Aug, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject:

Here are the Dolnstein sketches from 1502, the pretzel shaped guards can be seen in both pictures with a bit of effort .
While I'm not supposed to draw these kinds of conejctural conclusions as "serious" historian it's worth noting that the area in which the sword pictured at the start of this thread was found is directly on the probable marching route used by the Swedish army which fought an unnamed battle with German Landsknechts at Elfsborg in 1502. It is that battle which Dolnstein has drawn in the pictures below.

Lee O'Hagan · Posted: Tue 23 Aug, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject:

Jens,
Apologies for OT,
but any descriptive text on number three in the pic,
3. Italian ca 1520 from collection Franz Thill, Østrig.
Thanks, Big Grin

Interesting thread, Cool

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Wed 24 Aug, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject:

Lee O'Hagan · Posted: Thu 25 Aug, 2005 8:39 am Post subject:

Hi Patrik,
Thanks mate,peter was already kind enough to help me out with some info a little while back,as was nathan,

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Sat 27 Aug, 2005 9:49 am Post subject:

Well! after some searching about pretzel/kringla swords did i find some stuff,
Swedish 1400-1500

looks better on this Site.
There are allot to look at there to in that A-Z.

And i find a research about that strange one to, there are some engraving on pommel they don't
have any idea about what it is, Circle O and V marks, and they says it's newer then the older ones,
Strange sword with strange answer Confused

That research are a PDF file 1,5mb and you can read about the sword on page 19-24 in there,
just small parts in english, Bastardsvärdet i Säveån.

http://www.svk.com/arsskr/ars_98.pdf

Confused

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Sun 28 Aug, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject:

Just some pictures and information about The Säveån Bastard sword
so you guy's have something to read about

Pommel: engraved with silver inlay 3.6cm hight and 15.9cm around, flat top
Grip: length 27.5cm , some wood and copper thread left on
Crossguard: wide 7.5cm then treads are 50 and 58cm length
Blade: Length 39.8cm, wide at "tip" 3.5cm, at crossguard wide'r WTF?!

Note that you can see how the tang look's like
and proudly made by me Big Grin

, sketch of pattern on pommel.

Daniel Staberg · Posted: Sun 28 Aug, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject:

Patrik,
Tackar! Happy

Now you have made me even more interested in this type of sword, they might not be first class but they have a very strong historical connection to Sweden and Gothenburg. Someday i'll just have to order a custom model based on one of these swords.

Paul Dolnstein is the one of the few sources to say any thign about the siege and battle around Elfsborg in 1502, and of course he drew pictures of not only the battle but also the sieges of the castles of Elfsborg and Öresten.
This is book contains an interesting article about him and his diary http://websok.libris.kb.se/websearch/showreco...6&nr=1 you should be able to find a copy at a library. Stadsbiblioteket has one which I've read some years ago.

This book by Osprey contains photos of all of Dolnsteins drawings http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail....31~ser=WAR

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Tue 30 Aug, 2005 5:32 am Post subject:

I have think about that to Daniel!
Säveåns Kringla - a really real bloody saga, after all that i have read, and that are just about that area, Geez! Cool

and all "bad guys" was there to Big Grin

That sword have a style and charm i like.

Thanks for the links, i will check them up.

Daniel! Look in Dagbok here, About Göta tunneln finds.

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 12:42 am Post subject:

Just a update

A link to a highres of Paul Dolnsteins Battle sketch and photo of an kringla sword

Daniel Staberg · Posted: Sun 02 Oct, 2005 9:12 am Post subject:

Patrick,
The sword in the photo is that the same sword from the Livrustkammare that is drawn in the pictures and in a link you posted earlier? If so it's nice to see the entire sword. I've attached a pcitrue of another "kringla"-style Sword I found in Osprey's "Medieval Scandinavian armies 2". It's the longsword in the middle which realy caught my eye though, I realy like th hilt with ball(?)pommel and the ring on the side of the hilt as well as another ring protecing your finger if you put it 'above' the guard.