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Lance K.
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 Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: How much for a custom? |
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I was looking at these beauties and I am wondering what kind of price tag a custom sword like this might have. Any idea?
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Too many variables to consider. Custom work is usually discussed directly between the smith and the client. Some sites offer starting figures or ranges for past work.
Custom and quality has a price...
These two pieces are quite stunning.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: How much for a custom? |
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| Lance Karsten wrote: | I was looking at these beauties and I am wondering what kind of price tag a custom sword like this might have. Any idea?
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The price of a custom sword varies greatly by maker and sword. Each individual smith has their own set pricing structure. Indeed, since you are getting a one-off, even the same smith will have different pricing for different type of sword depending on the style, length, materials and embellishments. I can tell you Lance that if you ever go the custom route, it is a pure joy once you find a top smith that you are comfortable with. In general, damascus or pattern welded steel will generally cost much more than monosteel swords as considerable work and knowledge is required to make, refine, shape and heat treat those steels. There are some smiths who make thier own while some will but the pattern welded steel from a person who smecializes in it. Cost will vary accordingly. While I recognize these blades, I would not presume to speak to the cost of either.
Several thousands of dollars ( US) is not uncommon for a custom project and while you would think this would deter many people, maost of the top smiths have long wait lists. So it seems there is a small, but strong market for custom swords. Lance I hope you can get around to having a smith like Kevin Cashen or Vince Evans make your dream sword for you. You will not regret the experience.
Joel
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C.L. Miller
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 3:52 am Post subject: |
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I can't speak for VE's prices, though his swords are fantastic.
For at least a ball-park figure, you might want to check out Patrick Bárta's page, where he does post the prices charged for previous work. It is, of course, only my personal opinion, but I think Bárta is far and away the greatest smith working today where Viking and Migration era pieces are concerned. His prices, while far higher than what you're liking to encounter with production pieces, are very, very reasonable, and his swords are staggeringly beautiful. On top of all that, he includes a gorgeous scabbard with every blade, and his scabbards are, again, some of the best I've ever seen. But that's my opinion.
ArmArt, which used to carry Bárta's work, lists prices for both their "basic model" swords as well as a list of available customizations and price estimates on their website, plus a few full custom pieces. They've posted some very nice looking pattern-weld work recently, but you might want to run a search through the forums on other member's experiences with them before placing an order.
I'm guessing that the figures you see on the Czech sites are going to be lower than what you'll hear from smiths based in the US, but I'm not positive of that.
As others have already suggested, the thing to do is to e-mail a smith yourself. Find out if they're taking orders, how long their wait-list is, ask if it's okay to send a sketch or a photo of what you have in mind (don't send an image file without checking first), and go from there.
From what I've heard, Evans isn't taking orders at the moment, but it's always worth a shot! In addition to Evans and Bárta, Kevin Cashen is another well-respected (and deservedly so) smith who deals with pattern welding, as does JT Pälikkö. Manning Imperial is yet another option, as they offer pattern welding too. I haven't personally seen any of their pattern-weld work yet, but their re-enactment blades are top-notch.
If you find the price of the pattern-weld a bit steep, and you're willing to go with mono-steel at least in the interim, you might want to consider contacting Valdimir Cervenka. He's a wonderful czech smith and very willing to work with you on making just the sword you're looking for. If you're interested, e-mail him for a price-list, I think you'll be shocked.
All of the smiths referenced are accessible through myArmoury's links page.
Good luck, and please let us know if you decide to take the plunge!
-Christopher Liebtag Miller
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I'd be careful when comparing the pricing of Czech smiths like Patrick Barta to American smiths like Vince Evans. Patrick Barta has a basic pattern-welded, steel-hilted Viking sword that he lists at ~$1200 USD. A similar piece by Vince would likely be much more expensive.
I'll echo everyone else and say that there are far too many variables involved to be able to give ballparks on pricing in a forum like this. If you're truly interested in a custom piece then decide, based on research, who you want to make the piece for you. Decide what you want and ask the smith for a quote. If you're not serious about an order, then I wouldn't take up a smith's time just to satisfy curiosity. 
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Michael P Smith
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | If you're not serious about an order, then I wouldn't take up a smith's time just to satisfy curiosity. |
On the other hand, it's hard to decide if you CAN be serious about an order without knowing the kind of money we're talking about.
Folks seem to feel like the price of their custom pieces are deeply personal. I don't get it, but to each his own. However, it would be useful to get some feel for what a good custom piece goes for... examples, if not particulars. Everyone knows that YOUR piece will have it's own unique pricing, but at least it becomes possible to determine if you have the cash to request a quote, or if you have more saving to do before bugging the swordsmith
Mike
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Michael P Smith wrote: | On the other hand, it's hard to decide if you CAN be serious about an order without knowing the kind of money we're talking about.
However, it would be useful to get some feel for what a good custom piece goes for... examples, if not particulars. |
I wouldn't personally consider looking into a custom piece without $3000 - $5000 in hand. I figure that would be in the range of what I might expect to pay...
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Michael P Smith
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 9:17 am Post subject: |
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That's a useful answer!
I think it's perfectly reasonable to give that kind of range.... problem solved.
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Matthew Kelty
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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While everyone's advice is quite sound, I can give you a hint of what to expect from the American market.
Barring the decorative embellishments on the Pommel and Scabbard, you're looking at about $2,500 of Pattern Welding work in the Blade, based on previous experience with a few American Smiths of note (Jim Hrisoulas, Kirby Wise). If you were to approach other Artists for the finish Cutlery work (Jody Samson, Tony Swatton, Steve Moffett), I'd expect to tack another $1000 at the very high end, probably less.
Hope that helps,
Matthew
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Michael P Smith wrote: | On the other hand, it's hard to decide if you CAN be serious about an order without knowing the kind of money we're talking about.
Folks seem to feel like the price of their custom pieces are deeply personal. I don't get it, but to each his own. However, it would be useful to get some feel for what a good custom piece goes for... examples, if not particulars. Everyone knows that YOUR piece will have it's own unique pricing, but at least it becomes possible to determine if you have the cash to request a quote, or if you have more saving to do before bugging the swordsmith |
Mike,
The price of custom work is usually not discussed because it is "deeply personal" or anything like that. It's simply because not every smith uses the same formula for pricing every order. The cost of materials varies, the amount of time required varies, the smith's interest in a project varies, and the smith's relationship with a customer varies from customer to customer. All these factor into pricing. There are probably other factors as well.
If I come on a forum and say "Smith XYZ made me this pattern-welded sword for $500" the smith will likely get people wanting a similar item (or more extravagant one) for the price I quoted here, regardless of what the smith is currently charging for an item like that. Since many custom orders take a long time to complete, a price given when the order was placed may not apply to an order placed two years later for an identical item, for instance. I don't want the smith to feel compelled to price something a certain way because it was blabbed on a forum. It's out of respect for the smith, plain and simple.
Also, knowing what a "good custom piece goes for" is a subjective question. What's good? Looking? Performing? Both? Pattern-welded? Define "good custom piece" and then you can get a more conclusive answer.
Also, many of these are one-person shops. I know smiths spend hours answering questions for people, many of whom never place an order. Hence my last statement: If you're not serious about an order, then I wouldn't take up a smith's time just to satisfy curiosity.
For a good looking and performing, basic, no-frills (mono-steel, simple fittings), historically inspired custom sword, count on starting around $1000 USD. The fancier the materials, shapes, proportions get, the higher the price.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Stephen S. Han
Location: Westminster, CA Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Michael P Smith wrote: |
Folks seem to feel like the price of their custom pieces are deeply personal. I don't get it, but to each his own. ..
Mike |
My personal finances, what I paid for items I own are my "deeply personal" business. I may CHOOSE to disclose this information if someone were to approach my privately, but I am under no obligation to do so.
People have contacted me via PM from time to time with questions regarding pieces I own, including what I paid. I have always try to be helpful in answering those questions. I won't mention numbers on public forums.
Aaron did give a great ballpark range of figures for what I would think is "minimum" amount you want in hand, if you want the swords by Vince Evans with pattern-welded blade. Just remember, though, sky is the limit. You can conceivably spend up to $10,000 for a Howard Clark Katana, by the time you put together the antique fittings, custom material for the saya, etc.
Unsolicited advice from me in general. I personally think it is a bit risky to seriously contemplate purchasing items costing thousands of dollars based on photographs and heresay. Sure Vince Evans, to pick a bladesmith at random ;-), has a great reputation and the photos of his stuff are stunning, but there is nothing like actually seeing the swords in person, and perhaps even handle them. I would encourage everyone who are contemplating venturing into the world of custom swords to attend the custom shows. It seems like there is one every month around the country. My personal favorites are Las Vegas Classic and Blade Show (in Atlanta). Members of this forum had posted and reported on these shows with universal praise. I can't think of anyone who attended these shows and then say, "I wish I never went." Well, actually some of them do, because there are so many swords to buy and funds are limited. 
Another great benefit to physically attending the shows are discovering new people. I like Rob Patten. Who? You ask. My point exactly. He gets virtually no recognition on the "errornet" but his stuff are just great. I know this because I went to these shows, talked to Rob and handled his stuff. One of my favorite tomahawk is custom made on by Rob. I'll buy from him again. A pleasant young man, too.
This segues nicely into my final point. When you're at the shows, see if you can spare the time to stop at the new smiths. There are some marvelous smiths out there whose knives and swords are beautiful (or certainly show great promise), who are not "big names." Well guess what. Given the chance, they can become the "names." Prices tend to be more reasonable to. About 11 years ago, I was at a local show here and met a young man and his wife who had some great swords and knives on their table. Very pleasant people. Showed no annoyance at my endless amateurish questions. Not stand-offish like some other smiths at the show. Ended up buying a knife from them because I loved the workmanship, but also because I liked them as decent human beings. Very reasonable price. A pattern-welded bowie with sambar stag handle for less than what you would have to pay nowadays for a Strider. Not as well known then, those two. Over time, I kept running into them at these shows. Great items, great availability. I could go on Sunday of a 3 day show and find good knives still available. Those were the days. Now I hear tell that Vince and Grace Evans are selling out BEFORE the show opens.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen S. Han wrote: | | Aaron did give a great ballpark range of figures for what I would think is "minimum" amount you want in hand, if you want the swords by Vince Evans with pattern-welded blade. Just remember, though, sky is the limit. You can conceivably spend up to $10,000 for a Howard Clark Katana, by the time you put together the antique fittings, custom material for the saya, etc. |
Thanks, Stephen - and you have a very good point here. That figure I tossed out there was keeping in mind the fact that often, work can commence with only 50% down. Snagging a random queue of 6 months, that would give me the time needed to come up with the rest of the funds.
You also made some other good points - seeing work in person is totally different than a picture (my pics of Vince's pieces this past year in Atlanta don't show the true craftsmanship, for example, and I have seen pics of some other work (not Vince's) that when I saw the piece in person, wasn't impressed). Also, these folks start out somewhere - I know of a few "young" smiths that show tremendous promise. I met a number of them in Atlanta, along with a number of fellow collectors. Never would have happened had I not made the trek to the show.
Did come back way broke, though... happy, but broke.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Another thing to consider about pricing is that just because someone made a sword for a price the first time doesn't mean that they would EVER consider doing it again at that price. I've often agreed to do a project at a particular price and after having actually done it and realized how much effort and time were involved (not to mention material cost) swore I would NEVER do a similar project for that cheap a price again.
Stephen as usual also makes some good points. There's no substitute for actually handling the item especially at custom prices.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Another thing to consider about pricing is that just because someone made a sword for a price the first time doesn't mean that they would EVER consider doing it again at that price. I've often agreed to do a project at a particular price and after having actually done it and realized how much effort and time were involved (not to mention material cost) swore I would NEVER do a similar project for that cheap a price again. |
Isn't THIS the truth... I've taken a few hits before like that, Russ... still do upon occasion, but that's becoming much more rare, and when I do, I probably know up front, but do so anyway for some other reason.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: Market price |
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Secondary market value of custom pieces from most smiths can be had by searching the marketplace here or the classifieds over at SFI. If the price somebody is asking when they MUST sell something custom from your smith of choice for whatever reason is too much for you, its probably safe to say you're not ready to comission a custom job. The smith may charge more, or the smith may charge less than what you see, but you will know a valid market value at a specific point in time for that person's work.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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If you'd like to know what a Vince Evans sword costs just ask the man himself.
http://www.arscives.com/vevans/
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Lance K.
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
I wouldn't personally consider looking into a custom piece without $3000 - $5000 in hand. I figure that would be in the range of what I might expect to pay... |
Thanks Aaron. Thats all I was looking for, no names or specifics, just an idea.
Lance
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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: Prices |
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| Stephen S. Han wrote: |
My personal finances, what I paid for items I own are my "deeply personal" business. I may CHOOSE to disclose this information if someone were to approach my privately, but I am under no obligation to do so.
People have contacted me via PM from time to time with questions regarding pieces I own, including what I paid. I have always try to be helpful in answering those questions. I won't mention numbers on public forums.
Aaron did give a great ballpark range of figures for what I would think is "minimum" amount you want in hand, if you want the swords by Vince Evans with pattern-welded blade. Just remember, though, sky is the limit. You can conceivably spend up to $10,000 for a Howard Clark Katana, by the time you put together the antique fittings, custom material for the saya, etc.
Unsolicited advice from me in general. I personally think it is a bit risky to seriously contemplate purchasing items costing thousands of dollars based on photographs and heresay. Sure Vince Evans, to pick a bladesmith at random ;-), has a great reputation and the photos of his stuff are stunning, but there is nothing like actually seeing the swords in person, and perhaps even handle them. I would encourage everyone who are contemplating venturing into the world of custom swords to attend the custom shows. It seems like there is one every month around the country. My personal favorites are Las Vegas Classic and Blade Show (in Atlanta). Members of this forum had posted and reported on these shows with universal praise. I can't think of anyone who attended these shows and then say, "I wish I never went." Well, actually some of them do, because there are so many swords to buy and funds are limited.
Another great benefit to physically attending the shows are discovering new people. I like Rob Patten. Who? You ask. My point exactly. He gets virtually no recognition on the "errornet" but his stuff are just great. I know this because I went to these shows, talked to Rob and handled his stuff. One of my favorite tomahawk is custom made on by Rob. I'll buy from him again. A pleasant young man, too.
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Stephen is right on here on some points. I have a piece Kevin Cashen made for me in 2001. I think it's pointless to know the price for it because, in all probablility, he's changed his pricing 4 years later. I will tell people what I piad for it in private if they ask, but I will not post it up here. Why? Because I FEEL, that I owe it to Kevin not to. The price he and I agreed to was bewteen Kevin and me for this piece only and I don;t want anyone to think that a Type "blah" blade that is "blah" inches long costs $blah. From what I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is this: 1) pattern welded custom blades always cost more than monosteel ones from the same smith 2) katanas nearly always cost more than European swords
for smiths who make both.
Most of the custom smiths I talked to are happy to discuss sword prices if you have a particular design and I think that is key. If you want to have a custom piece made I think a primary element is to have a rough idea of what you want. When you and the smith have finalized most of the details of the design, then he will give you a price. Also, it is usually not good to ask a custom smith to make a copy of either a movie piece or another custom piece you saw somwhere. These guys are artists and usually shy away from copying other people's work. Also, be prepared to conceded some design elements for functionality. Sometimes what we come up with in our heads just doesn't make a good sword. If you trust a smith with a couple of thousand dollars then you shoudl trust his knowledge of making swords.
One final thing I have noticed is that the custom katana market has LOTS more variation in pricing than the European market. As Stephen said you can pay upwards of $10,000 or more ( depending on fittings) for one of Howard Clark's spectacular blades. However, there are some contemporary Japanese smith who command far higher prices!
Stephen I have to ask you if you are just being sarcastic when you say "errornet" or truely frown upon the internet today. Stephen I would not have access to your knowledge without the internet and I am very glad that I do! I am certain many people here would love to get to the blade shows, but sometimes it's not in the cards. Had it not been for the net I would not have advanced my sword knowledge as much over the past years. I think the net has made it possible to spread sword collecting to a broader audience AND allowed some of the above mentioned smiths to actually make a living at their trade. Also, the "heresay" you speak of to me, depends largely on the heresayer. I trust Patrick Kelly's thoughts on a particular sword because I know he is a knowledgable person. If Nathan tells me on the forum that the finish on a particular sword is somewhat rough for the price, I can look at his collection and know that he speaks from experience and his comparasons mean something to me. There is not ONE sword I own that I was able to evaluate personally before I purchased it. I wish I could have, but it was not geographically or economically feasible for me to do so. Thus, I don't think we should too lightly dismiss the opinions of those who have worked so hard to create an intelligent forum to share them in. Caution, yes, but we can be sensible about things.
Lance I think Aaron was accurate on what he said about pricing for the kind if swords you have pictured. Other factors you may also consider Lance are your location. Am I correct in thinking that you are not from the US ( I don;t know why I think that). If that is so there are some excellent European smiths you could look to. Again Lance, I would hope you get a chance to go the custom route as it can be a fantastic experience with the right smith. Good Luck 
Joel
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Stephen S. Han
Location: Westminster, CA Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Prices |
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| Joel Whitmore wrote: |
Stephen I have to ask you if you are just being sarcastic when you say "errornet" or truely frown upon the internet today. Stephen I would not have access to your knowledge without the internet and I am very glad that I do! I am certain many people here would love to get to the blade shows, but sometimes it's not in the cards. Had it not been for the net I would not have advanced my sword knowledge as much over the past years. I think the net has made it possible to spread sword collecting to a broader audience AND allowed some of the above mentioned smiths to actually make a living at their trade. Also, the "heresay" you speak of to me, depends largely on the heresayer. I trust Patrick Kelly's thoughts on a particular sword because I know he is a knowledgable person. If Nathan tells me on the forum that the finish on a particular sword is somewhat rough for the price, I can look at his collection and know that he speaks from experience and his comparasons mean something to me. There is not ONE sword I own that I was able to evaluate personally before I purchased it. I wish I could have, but it was not geographically or economically feasible for me to do so. Thus, I don't think we should too lightly dismiss the opinions of those who have worked so hard to create an intelligent forum to share them in. Caution, yes, but we can be sensible about things.
Joel |
I would've preferred to do this via PM, but since the query was done in public, so shall my response be. Joel, I do frown a great deal on the internet. The reasons are more than just the one posted above. Yes, it is true that the internet today is a valuable tool, IF one knows the quality of the "hearsayer." You have had the benefit of observing for years, both here and at other sites before you could discern the veracity and knowledge of people like Parick Kelly or Nathan Robinson. I, too, am grateful to them and others such as Thomas McDonald, Chad Arnow and so on. HOWEVER, for the uninitiated the internet is a vast wasteland of uninformed opinions disguised as the expert one. I certainly do not "lightly dismiss" the opinion of those who worked hard to create this forum; I was not singling out this forum when I spoke of the "errornet." But the potential for dissemination of poor information is undisputable. I am glad Lance posted the question here, since the posters here in this forum tend to be more knowledgeable. I would still urge caution for the reasons I posted in my prior post.
This very thread in a way proves my point when I say "errornet". I know Lance does not know because he has not done the deep research (though he could have found out here in this forum if he took some time). One of the subjects of the initial post of this thread, one of the "beauties" Lance spoke of in the first post with the photos, happens to belong to me. Anyone with a PC and a modem connection can download some photos and start typing. I do not bear Lance any ill will, but what he did seems to illustrate to me the potential for the internet to convey misleading information. If someone can instantaneous post a query without research, can not someone else instantaneously post a response without research?
I am also painfully aware of financial limitations and/or realities of life when one speaks of these custom shows. This year I was unable to attend the Blade Show in Atlanta because of them. However, my advise still stands. Try to make it to the shows. If one is contemplating spending thousands of dollars on a single piece of steel, the more first hand information the better as a general rule. The internet can be a fine tool for research, but I cannot stress enough that it has limitations.
Joel, at the end of the day (don't you just hate cliches?) we are pretty much in agreement about things. I seem to be a tad more cynical about the internet in general, that's all.
Best regards,
Stephen
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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: Cheer up Stephen |
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I understand your points completely and agree with much of what you say. I for one and glad that you decide to some here and share. So happy collecting and hoep to see you around more Stephen.
Cheers,
Joel
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