[Matthew Grzybowski]

Here is something a little different that we (my brother Mark and I) are working on right now. It's a pike based on a combination of several different historical pike designs that we found. In particular I like the steal throating that extends down past the blade, which was used to stop the opponent from cutting of the tip of the pike making it pretty much useless. The pike is made of out ash and 1075 steel. At the time of the photos the wood is still bare and unfinished. We were also waiting to get the blade back from heat-treating. On to some pictures...



Each of these three sections screws together to create the pike. As you know traditional pikes we over 15' long + , which is just HUGE! We opted for 10' (fully assembled), which is still quite long, yet more manageable. Another reason we wanted to have three sections to the pike was that we wanted it to be able to be displayed at a smaller size, but still maintain the over all feel. This can be achieved be screwing sections 1 and 3 together. I've got a couple of pictures later that show this.



At the time of these pictures we still are waiting to get the blade back. The above pic shows the wooden template of the blade. It's also a little bit easier to see the throating.





Here's a couple of shots of the pike assembled (without the blade) at both full and partial length. Even at 9'4" it's just huge!



Lastly, here's why it's fun using ash. We're able to get a nice shot of how flexible it is. I’ll post again when we’re finished. Enjoy and happy Friday!

[Matthew Kelty]

It must be something in the air. My pike project had stalled for a while, but I recently picked up steam, and have been boldly forging ahead...

Since my bend is the Renaissance Faires, I'm bound to the historical dimensions, so I've been dealing with the full 16' monsters that you dodged...

The dimensions were all scoured from period texts and Museum holdings, and represent the average length, average head, and largest diameter pole described in period (there are some debates regarding tapered vs. untapered shafts, but so far it's all inconclusive). I have no weights of period Pikes available to compare to, but I'm fairly certain I'm getting heavier results than were common in the period. This suits me fine, as they will be seeing some abuse over the years, but I still need to conduct a survey to see what the real buggers were like.

Pole: 1 3/4" X 16'
Head: 2 1/4" X 6"
Cheeks (Langets): 2' long
Rivets: 1/4" X 3" Carriage bolts (trimmed to 2") and 1/2" diameter washers (1/4" hole, obviously...

Weight of the assembled Head and Cheeks: ~2 lbs.
Weight of the Pole: ~13 pounds
Assembled Weight: ~15.5 pounds (factoring in the rivets and variances)

Sight of a dozen 16' bits of Tetanus on a stick: Priceless

I've still not got any pictures of the finished, mounted products, but you can get a sense of them as they're being built:

http://www.renaissancewarfare.com/articles/PikePoles.htm

I'll hopefully get some more progress photos up this weekend. They really polished out nicely, and the mounting has been going fairly well, only a few distortions, and only one failure against the long suffering telephone pole I test blows the finished pikes with.

Nice to see another Pike lover out there...

[Matthew Grzybowski]

Great site!!! I love the info on it and in your post. You're making me want to start on another!

[Matthew Kelty]

Thank you!

The site is thin currently, but I'm stockpiling my Data in the hopes of getting it up...

If you're interested in them things Renaissance Warfare related, I've just spun up a new Yahoo Group. PM me for an invite if you want.

For "Everything you ever wanted to know about Pikes but were afraid to ask", here you go:

`Certain Discourses Concerning Formes And Effects Of Weapons'
Sir John Smythe
1590

"I would wish that all the piques throghout England (that are for the
field) shold be reduced into one uniformitie of legth, that is,
either to seventeene foote long by the rule, or else to eighteene
foote, and not above, which are two foote longer tha the Spaniardes
do use in their milicia, & therewithall, I wold have them to be made
so light & of very good wood that they shold be both portable and
maniable, which many of our piques at this present are not."


`Approoved Order Of Martial Discipline'
Gyles Clayton
1591

"They must have Morions Swordes and Daggers, their Pikes of usuall
length, sharpe pointed, and well nayled: and cause them in time of
marching, to lay their Pikes on theyr shoulders, and their thums
under the same, the but ende on the outside of his leades Legge.
After this sorte to march to Muster, to retyre, and Imbattaile as
aforesayd: having a great care and regarde, that no Souldiour of
spite or negligence doe cut the same, or any way impayre it, for the
greatest strength of the battaile consisteth therein."


`Art Of Warre'
Thomas Garrard
1591

"…because I will not be over prolite upon every particular point, I
will onelie say thus much more concerning the pikeman, that he ought
to have his Pyke at the point and middest trimmed with handsome
tassels, and a handle, not so much for ornament as to defend the
Souldiers bodie from water, which in raine doth runne downe alongst
the wood."


`Certain Instruction Of Orders Militarie'
Sir John Smythe
1594

"...that because the longest piques that are in these daies used by
any nation are not above 18. foot long…"

"Their piques also I would wish them all to bee of the length of 18.
foote, and neither longer nor shorter for the causes in my former
instructions and discourses mentioned, as also conteined in my Booke
of certen Discourses printed 1590. and that they shoulde have verie
good and foure square heads of good temper, and lowe armed with long
cheeks, and in the midst covered or armed with black lether or black
vellure, or with some other such thing, and y they should not be too
great nor heavie in wood, that thereby the souldiors may carrie them
and manage them with ease."

"Also I would that the staves of the picques should bee of a tite and
stiffe ashe, and not of ashe that dooth sagge, and bend when the
piquers doo carrie their piques breasthigh before hand couched,
because that such sagging and bending ashe, although it be verie
tough yet it is more heavie then the other ashe; besides that the
piquers cannot carry the piques of such sagging, and bending piques
so even and straight in their Enemies faces, as they may carrie the
other piques that doo not bend nor sagge, but are tite and straight."


`Soldier's Accidence'
Gervase Markham
1625

These shall have strong, straight, yet nimble Pikes of Ash-wood, well
headed Steele, and armed with plates downward from the head, at least
foure foote, and the full size or length of every Pike shall be
fifteene foote, beside his head.


`Instructions for Musters'
Charles I
1631

"It is required, that the Muskets be all of a Bore, the Pikes of a
length: But to the end this course may not by a sudden alteration
turne to a generall charge and burrthen upon the people, the Lords
Lieutenants, and the Deputy Lieutenants are rather to use the way of
advise and encouragement, as a matter which will be very acceptable
to his Majestie, who will take notice of the affection of such as
shall most readily provide Armes according to this order, then to
enforce a present generall observation thereof. But in case where the
Armes shall be decayed, and must bee renewed, this order is to be
strictly observed."


`Directions For Musters Wherein is shewed the order of drilling for
the Musket and Pike'
1638

"The Pikeman must be armed with a Pike seventeen foot long head and
all; (the diameter of the staff to be one inch 3/4, the head to be
well steeled, 8 inches long, broad, strong, and sword-pointed; the
cheeks 2 foot long, well riveted; the butt-end bound with a ring of
iron

[Gordon Frye]

Matthew;

Does it say anywhere in your readings that the cheeks are to actually be fixed to the head of the pike? I know that for the most part halberds and such have cheeks fixed to the heads, but I have often wondered as to the pikes. If they are as cheap and dirty as we usually think of them as being, it would certainly make sense to skip that step of forge-welding on these 4-foot straps of iron, and just "nail" them on, as some of the tomes seem to imply.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Matthew Kelty]

Here's where the intent and purpose come to bear on the design, and the *lack* of a good answer leaves us scratching our heads...

If the intent is just to protect the pole from cuts, then clearly they can be just tacked on.

If the intent is to provide structural integrity, then they certainly would be attached.


No clear text references define this, however, as usual, I have a theory...
(Gordon loves it when I say that...

1.Halberds, Glaives, Bills and Partizans all (or should I say *most*) have attached Langets down the sides. This makes perfect sense, as the strength required of these "cleavers", which all sit fairly firmly on the shaft, is critical in the blow, and help transfer the energy along the shaft, as well as brace the shaft to prevent it from snapping at the socket. Pikes certainly aren't exerting the same sort of vertical energy, but they are being asked to punch through steel armour.

2. The only langets not usually seen on the sides are on the long edged axes (bardiches and the like), which generally have attached langets down the front and or rear. These axe forms involve a socket near the top of the shaft, and sockets that would appear fairly small in comparison to the blade mass. They also tend to come from the less affluent cultures/eras, and tend to have more examples of "Iron/Steel Edge sandwich" construction than their more Metropolitan/Modern neighbors. I'm thinking that in these forms, it's less structural integrity for the shaft, and more to keep the axe from bending back on the Iron socket.

3. Forge welding may seem like a nightmare to us, but we also have the convenience of picking up the right sized piece of metal for the job, and adding material where we need it. Also realize that not all the bars you see are welded together, but are more often then not cut apart. Since they're not shopping for two pieces of 3/4" 1/8" X 24" steel, and one piece of 2" X 1/4" X 6", *EVERYTHING* is going to involve hammerwork.

In that regard it's a hell of a lot easier to pick up a foot long chunk of steel, heat it up, get a buddy to hold the chisel, split it up the middle about halfway, shape out the socket and head, stretch and thin out the langets, fold and weld the socket shut (you were going to do that part anyways), and finalize the shape of the head.

To give you an idea of how easy this process is, I'll offer you my story...

With the benefit of every available power tool at my disposal, I spent 5 minutes cutting my socket out of the sheet, 5 minutes shaping the cone, 5 minutes welding the cone shut, 10 minutes welding the socket to the spear head (already shaped), and 5 minutes welding the langets to the socket. Not too shabby.....

(And then I grind it for about 20 minutes to clean up all the crap, but that's another story...

Jim Hrisoulas then laughed his a$$ off at me, and asked why I didn't forge it....

He has made a Pike at the same (thereabouts) dimensions as mine, and it took him about 2 minutes to get it to heat (sure, Propane's faster than Coal, but here's where the magic begins), and then to split it 6" takes about 15 seconds (3 whacks with a 3" chisel hardy), 1 minute of heat, 1 minute to stretch one langet, 1 minute of heat, 1 minute to stretch the next langet, 1 minute of heat, 2 minutes to stretch the socket, 1 minute of heat, 1 minute to shape the socket, 2 minutes to heat, flux, 1 minute heat, weld socket (2-3 passes or so), 1 minute heat, shape the head (2-3 passes or so), pack edges (2 minutes or so), heat for 3 minutes, quench, and then he's ready for the temper.

So, his 30 minutes to my 40-50 minutes, but the difference in incorporating the Langets added only 5 minutes or so in his beginning to end process. For un-cheeked Spears, he cites his "volume" production at 15 minutes each on average.

As a side note, he actually has all manner of Torches at his disposal, but he swears that it's far easier to cut bars away when making compound hilts than it would be to weld on the appropriate material. The next time you swing by, take a look at the Reiterscwhert hilt, and you'll see it's one piece split into 3 bars per side which make the side rings and port ring on the guard...

So, it's less about "adding" things, you're going to be doing significant hotwork anyways, and cutting is easier than welding.


Between these three reasons, and the fact that most (but not all) langets *are* attached on Pikes, I believe it to be *most* correct to have them attached.


...and now I want to finish my Forge....

[Gordon Frye]

As always, Matthew, a thorough answer! I guess that pretty much says it all then... Now to decide which pike heads are more proper for which decade and century, LOL!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Matthew Kelty]

>As always, Matthew, a thorough answer!

You wouldn't be calling me verbose now, would you...

[Gordon Frye]

[David Evans]

Hmmm.....The snooker cue approach to the pike....Never seen one. It's been talked about but I've never seen anyone do it! By the way, Half Pike are 12' long.......

Matthew. Those figures look about right for a pike. Ash is always preferred cos it flexs nicely. Which makes it very easy to move about.

However. Pike are never intended to punch thro armour. What's the point of making a cheap weapon 16' long that can punch thro plate? It would end up having to remain the same taper along its whole length. What you do do is mass 3, 6 or 9 pikeheads one behind the other in a file 6, 9, 12 or 18 men deep. Someone will find the weak spot in the armour. Remember also that a swordsmen stands square on to his intended victim, a pikeman stands side on. That means the poor swordsmen is facing 2 files of 6, 12, or 18 pikeheads...Why do you thing Landsknecht 2 handed swordsmen were paid double wages.....

[David Evans]

"there are some debates regarding tapered vs. untapered shafts, but so far it's all inconclusive"


Tapered! Trust me...Tapered! Untapered pikes move badly. You have to exert excessive force to move an untapered pike around; it takes extra effort to hold at Charge. Try “Charge to the rear from Shoulder” with an untapered pike! This is where you start at shoulder with the pike on your right shoulder held at the balance point. Upon the word of command the pike is lifted clear over your head with your right hand and back wards. The pike is then thrown over your head upwards, you turn around to your left with your left hand shooting down along the shaft to the butt and the pike settles into the Charge position. Try that with a tapered against an untapered pike!

[Stephen Hand]

I agree with David. After hefting around untapered pikes for over a decade, the re-enactment group I was in made tapered pikes that were exact copies of ones in the Royal Armouries. They are a billion times better handling than untapered pikes. The thickest point is about a third of the way along the pike, or a little below head height when you're holding the pike at the order (butt on the ground, pike vertical).

Having charged pikes into armoured opponents and tried to cut pike heads off with swords I can comfortably say that the purpose of langets is not to prevent pike head being cut off. If you can hold a 16-18' pike steady enough for someone to take the head off with a sword cut then you're stronger than me. As stated in an account of the battle of Preston in 1648 and as happens in my personal experience, if you are in a large formation and you slam a pike into an armoured opponent, and it doesn't have langets, the head breaks off.

Cheers
Stephen

[Matthew Grzybowski]

"...The snooker cue approach to the pike....Never seen one. It's been talked about but I've never seen anyone do it! "

That's what we found when we were doing research. It seemed like a good fit for what the customer was looking for.

But I didn't know that there were such things as half pikes. Thanks very much for the info!!!

[Matthew Kelty]

"Pike are never intended to punch through armour."

Most period sources cite that at least the first few ranks of Pikemen should be armoured, so clearly it was at least a consideration. I can also attest to the Pike's ability to punch holes in Steel.

The California-based Renaissance Military Society (RMS for short) occasionally hauls out an old Suit of Armour and a Morion for demonstration purposes. The Armour is some nasty 14 gauge monstrosity that someone pounded out of an old Buick I think (it was a Prop, never intended to be worn). They strap it to a propped up haybale (to give it some mass... and line their boys up for Pike practice. With a leveled pike, you advance and strike as you get within range (you're moving, so targeting is key, and only about 40% of the new kids even hit the target).

I've thrust the tip about 1" through the breastplate from the slow advance (with a 3/4 push of the pike, or about a 12" thrust), and once put the tip through the 1/2" gap in the cheeks, and about 1 1/2" through the back of the helmet, before the steel finally held, but not before the 1" X 2" snapped and the Haybale toppled... That's the other reason why Ash is so nice, it flexes a bit and builds up some kinetic energy as well...

Certainly the tip can glance off the armour, and does so about a third of the time, but a well placed blow will *definitely* punch holes in the opponent.

As for the ranks of Pikes, yes, there are on average anywhere from 3-6 ranks deep of leveled Pikes, but each rank of Pike heads is about 2' behind the rank in front of it. The 2nd rank isn't going to be finding purchase on the same target as the 1st rank, it's going to be preventing the opponent from getting any further should they evade the 1st rank.


"Why do you thing Landsknecht 2 handed swordsmen were paid double wages"

Umm, to protect the Flag and the Colonel...

While the Zweihander is an effective "Maul" (thanks Jean for that great description on the other thread... for disrupting the Front of a Pike square, the Zweihanders only account for 1-2% of the entire Company, and they're in the center with the Colors, unless the formation is failing. Also remember that while most Zweihander weilders are certainly Doppelsoldner, not all Doppelsoldner are neccesarily Zweihander weilders.


"Try “Charge to the rear from Shoulder” with an untapered pike"

I do it all the time, although definitely not with one hand... Placing the left hand upon the shaft at the right shoulder enables one to heft it overhead and place it without any issue, and in a single fluid step. Also bear in mind that while it is *depicted* that within two moves the Pike is seated in the proper charged position (with the hand cupping the end), this is not neccesarily the case, and is even noted as such by DeGheyn (or his English Interpreter). The following is from the 1619 edition, which included many notes not made in the 1608 version:

Maniement D'Armes D'Arquebuses Mousquetz Et Piques
Jacob De Gheyn
1619

"Here is to be considered that although there be but two palming figures here set downe, which some might take as if it were sayd that just in three remooves of the hande, the Pike could be charged yet is not that our meaninge, but that followin the example of those two palming figures, the learner must know that he is to palme or hande the Pike (by shifting hands) so long till he have recovered the lower or butt end of the Pike into his right hand."

You also must consider the artistic license that happens with these works. Were Jacob's illustrations to be exact interpretations, the Pikes have no discernible taper at either end, and appear approximately 1" diameter the entire length (they are consistently about the thickness of the thumb). The 2 Dutch Pikes I've been able to hunt down from the period have uniform shafts approximately 1 3/8" to 1 5/8" in diameter, and are certainly heavier than these drawings would make them appear. Jacob's Pikes are more akin to those used in the Tournament lists.

As far as the extant Tapered pikes, that is actually a topic I am pursuing as we speak. So far the only confirmed tapered Pikes are those in the Royal Armouries, or re-enactors who have modeled theirs after the Royal collection, and there are many examples of untapered Pikes out there as well. I'm in the midst of doing an audit among as many Museums and Collections from as wide a Geographic and Era spread as I can, to see what the distribution is, and I'll certainly report back my findings.

I'm *CERTAIN* they would be a lot easier to handle, and believe me, I'd love to get away with a lighter Pike, but I'm not not seeing any evidence either way that they were all, or mostly, tapered or straight, and that's what I'm looking to answer.

I, too, beleive the Cheeks are structural reinformcents, and not merely "sword deterrents", I was merely tossing out the two prevailing theories.

Matthew

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

[Gordon Frye]

[Matthew Grzybowski]

...By the way, this looks like a great project...

Thanks very much! I'll post up the finished pick of the pike when we're all finished. It's looking like I should have finished shots for this next week. We're all very excited!

[David Evans]

Blimey...
Didn't realise there were so many Gentlemen at arms about.

George Silver, one of the London Fencing masters. I'm not happy with his 8' to 9' Pike. The handful of references we've seen refer to half pikes from armouries within the UK, The Tower of London, Hull and Berwick in the main, and all come in the 12' length area. Silver himself is talking about 5 different weapons, "......short staff, or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of vantage....." when disscussing how to find the correct length for someone of such weapons. Robert, Earl of Essex, after issuing orders to his army at Edgehill grabbed a half pike and took post in the front rank of his regiments' pike division.

Using Both hand...Directions for Musters, 1638, which uses variants of the De Gheyn pictures and de Gheyn himself shows the first motion with both hands moving the pike off the shoulder but the second motion shows only one hand with the left hand in line with the head, holding the pike, and the right hand free, moving towards the butt. Keeping both hands on the pike throughout the move is singularly graceless, an important point to them, and does hurt a bit!

Punching thro armour. Most English Civil War sources that talk about the use of pike on the battlefield tend to mock its value, claiming little or no damage is done.

In practise, we find that the front rank of pike can hold steady whilst the second and third ranks thrust at faces, arms, throats and anywhere else you can reach. Quite easy with tapered pikes....

Stephen....Did you ever finish the 1595 Dutch manual? I'd be interested in seeing what differences there are!

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Weren't spontoons often called half pikes? They were certainly usually more in the 6-8 ft range. Maybe it depended on the period and who you asked...

As for getting through armor, di Grassi seemed to consider the pike a very hard hitting weapon, though that doesn't automatically mean it could punch through plate. By the 16th century even couched lances were having trouble doing that. Some artwork shows pikes going through plate though. I think it probably happened from time to time, but took a strong, skillful and/or lucky thrust.

[Matthew Kelty]

Just for grins and giggles, I assaulted some steel with the Pikes, and got some good results. I had two sheets to play with, some 16 gauge Stainless Steel and 14 gauge Mild Steel. I suspended them from the telephone pole to give it a firm purchase. I normally get the pikes about an inch into the pole, so it will give a bit when hit.

From about 18" away, the Stainless was penetrated easily, with about 1/2" and 3/4" penetration. The impact points looked much like a bullet, complete tearing of the steel, and a narrow area of deformation around the holes. This was a simple thrust, and I really didn't throw my weight into it.

The 14 gauge was definitely a tougher nut to crack, and while it didn't penetrate, it did create deformations about 1/4" - 3/8" deep. I'll chalk this up to the annealed state, as the stretching was very deep and not very wide. For the thicker steel, I definitely added some "umph" into it, but was still only striking from between 12-18" away.

Considering that the pikes are not hardened at all, are fairly blunt, and suffered quite a bit of deformation upon impact, I think it's safe to say that a properly hardened head would've made a difference as well.

My PC with the USB ports is dead right now, so I can't get you any pictures immediately, but I'll try to get some for you shortly.

Matthew