[George Hill]

OK, I need to line my sheild with some sort of padding. But I want it to be historical.

What did they use in the old days? My current sheild is a round MRL steel disk. Not the most historical of shields, since round shields were usually wood, but nonetheless, I like it.

I want to keep the weight down, since I use it to spar....

I saw a fur lining on a Targe that I liked well, but can I clean my sweat out of fur? Hmm.... What happens to fur if you sweat into it?



Also, I'd rather not drill holes, so maybe I should just use a leather pad attached to the current holes? (there are four with bolts for the straps.) But let's not make that a discussion limitation, what ideas and historic offerings does the forum have?

[Gordon Frye]

George;

Worry not about the round steel sheild, as they most most certainly existed in the period... it just depends upon what period you're talking about. There are sufficient referrences, as well as remaining historical examples, from the late-16th and early-17th Centuries to suggest that if not the most common available, they were certainly a popular variant.

I too have been wondering about the liner, as I have a really nice target blank of my own that I want to furbish. I've seen photo's of the Henry VIII pistol-shields, which look to have a padded interior, and I have thought that burlap or heavy linen would serve well when stuffed with either cotton wool or some other stuff. (Of course a nice Kevlar liner would be just the thing: If the steel doesn't stop it, the Kevlar wiil! )

I'd love to hear the responses from other folks too. I'm looking forward to being able to put together a decent "Targeteer" kit for Jamestown 2007.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Allan Senefelder]

The easiest thing that comes to mind would be two pieces of wool felt cut to the diameter you desire the padding to cover , stiched together around the outside edge and stuffed with cotton batting. Then contact cement it in place. It will be removeable when and if it gets to nasty from bodily secretions(it always sounds nastier if you say sweat that way) and will cost about $10 in materials. If you want it to cover the entire inside surface just measure where the handles are in relation to the center of the shield, make two cuts as long as the handles stich up those edges as well and they should allow the handles to pass through the padding.

[Sean Flynt]

I'll second Gordon's comment. A round steel target is a good, historically appropriate choice for 16th-17th c. Check out some of the De Bry engravings from Euro explorers in 16th c. North America, for example, and any number of other period illustrations.

As for the targeteer kit--great minds think alike, Gordon! My next project will be an early colonial-era wood/leather target similar to the one shown here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ight=skean

...but smaller, more resembling the 16th c. Irish target shown in Osprey's The Irish Wars.

[Gordon Frye]

Sean;

That's a great idea, I look forward to seeing the project as it progresses.

In George Percy's "A Trewe Relacion" of his adventures in the Virginia Colony, quoted by Peterson in "Arms and Armour in Colonial America" there is this gem:

One of our Gentlemen having a Target which hee trusted in, thinking it would beare out a slight shot, hee set it up against a tree, willing one of the Savages to shoot; who tooke from his backe an Arrow of an elle long, drew it strongly in his Bowe, shoots the Target a foot thorow or better: which was strange, being that a pistoll could not pierce it. Wee seeing the force of his Bowe, afterwards set him up a steele Target, he shot again, and burst his arrow all to pieces. He presently pulled out another Arrow, and bit it in his teeth, and seemed to be in a great anger .

Thus showing the superiority of the "steele Target" over the wood and leather versions! But I guess the Savage wasn't particularly pleased by this newfound contraption of the English...

Cheers,

Gordon

[Sean Flynt]

That's a favorite passage, and an instructive one on many levels--the owner of the first (wood & leather?) target's confidence that it could bear a "slight" arrow shot (probably already expecting that it could bear a pistol shot,) the superiority of a slender, pointed projectile over a low-velocity spherical one in penetrating leather and wood, and the overall superiority of the steel target (probably a pricey item). It's observations like these that led the colonists to adapt their arms & armour to the context of warfare in the new world.

It's somewhat ironic that folks who do similar, informal testing today tend to get slapped down because such tests can't accurately replicate combat conditions (in fact, I'm one of the skeptics). The Colonists were doing exactly the same kinds of tests 400 years ago, albeit somewhat ininadvertantly and with better insight into the practical implications of the results. You can bet the owner of the first target swallowed hard when he saw an arrow from a native self bow penetrate his target far enough to injure him if he'd been holding it at the time. Just another clue to him and his fellows that what worked in European warfare might not be as useful in the Americas. We know his target was proof against pistol, and probably would have served well against sword and polearms (the longbow was uncommon in Euro warfare by this time). But those American natives had no pistols, few swords and no polearms....

On a related note: After the violent native uprising of 1622, the Virginia colonists accepted a shipment of outdated English arms and armour, but diverted to the Carrcarribeanhipment of longbows because they were afraid those weapons would inspire the natives to improve their bow technology. I think that speaks volumes about the value of bows to the colonists (little) and the natives (great).

Sorry to hijack the thread! I get carried away on this subject.

[Sean Flynt]

OK, George...maybe I can now be helpful

Have a look at this late 16th c. steel target. Note the rivets. According to the German description of this piece at Hermann Historica:

"...back riveted and partly primed reinforcement with black lacquer finish. Diameter 58 cm"

So, it sounds as if the rivets secure a reinforcing metal plate to the back. Since that plate is lacquered, it apparently was expected to be exposed to the elements. Maybe it had no cloth or leather lining at all. I have a period illustration of the rear of a steel target, and I can't tell that there's any padding/lining.

[Sean Flynt]

...On the other hand...
Here's what HH has to say about this target:

German, 2nd half of the 16th century. Slightly cambered shield, spirally embossed with alternate blacking, flanged, corded rim. There is a replacement conical spike set in the front on a rosette cut in the shape of a flower. Two pairs of iron rivets on each side to fasten the hand loops. The rim surrounded with iron sheathing rivets (some replacements), underlain with stamped brass rosettes. Diameter 57 cm. Weight 3.5 Kg.

"Sheathing" does sound like a poor translation of "lining," so perhaps this one was lined. I'd think thick leather would be appropriate. I can't quite picture a padded linen construction for these, especially if there was concern about reinforcing the back of what must be a relatively thin plate (it's thin enough to emboss, and embossing further thins the material).

[Allan Senefelder]

From "Fine Arms And Armor" Item 22 - Round Parade Shield or Target(companion to 21) of iron embossed on a richly gold damascened and bluedground,with a scene showing "the justice of Scipio" derived from "Roman History of Livy. It was modled on a print by Antonio Salamanca(1542). The silk lining of the shield is embroidered and shows male and a female figure resting in a landscape and surrounded by cupids. The Milanese embroiderer Catarina Leuca Cantona.

So in this heavily repoused example at least fabric was fine as a liner. Every persian dhal shield i've ever owned had a padded velvet liner. The shotproof target(weight 27lbs) that was up on ebay back in Febuary on the other hand had fragments of a leather lining as does the lighter sword use one up now. I'll dig around in my books to see what other examples I can find but it would seem that either fabric or leather could be used.

[Gordon Frye]

Sean;

Although most of my books are still in boxes due to my move, and thus I can't dig out the specific picture, I do recall Henry VII's pistol shields as having a padded material liner. I should think too that with something like steel, it would behoove one to have some sort of lining to the shield/target to not only pad it for absorbing blows, but also as an insulation from the vagaraties of the weather. Steel is a good conductor of heat, cold and often times other forms of energy!

I recall seeing a steel target some years ago with a heavy linen band riveted to the rim (the reason in this case for the line of rivets around the circumference of the target) to which the liner was assumedly sewn. I know that I've querried Allan Senefelder about this a few times, but I strongly believe that most steel targets were provided with some sort of a liner, padded if possible. However, I look forward to being proven wrong, as that is what is holding me up from completing mine!

Cheers!

Gordon

[George Hill]

So let's see... Kevlar... Quilted cloth.... Leather... Maybe quilted leather? Nah. Quilted Kevlar. (I had no idea Kevlar was a period material! )

I'm rather suprised the arrow went in a foot. I was under the impression period sheilds would usually stop arrows after only a few inches. I wonder what kind of wood he made it out of.




BTW, The picture in the other thread. A fellow in the back has a 'rack of darts' Can someone link me to a resource on darts that doesn't involve game rooms?

[W. R. Reynolds]

George,

What time period are you doing. Could make all the difference in the world if you are trying to be period correct.

[George Hill]

[W. R. Reynolds]

[Sean Flynt]

Heroic Armor of the Italian Renaissance describes in detail a number of exceptionally fine steel shields/targets. Where linings are extant or known, they are:
• "leather"
• "white leather" (a later replacement)
• "black velvet"
• "black velvet"

I should emphasize that these shields are works of art, probably not expected to be used in combat.

FWIW, the attached De Bry image at least gives some idea about attaching the straps:

[Felix Wang]

Going further back in time, at least one Viking shield appears to have been lined with leather, and dried grass stuffed underneath. see: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/tirskom.html This is a rather unusual shield, since the boss is wood, and the boards are spruce or fir; but it is reported to have marks suggesting battle-damage.

[Sean Flynt]