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David Etienne




Location: Ittre, Belgium
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PostPosted: Thu 26 May, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Tenison Psalter and 13th C. bastard swords         Reply with quote

Hi all,

I've read in the review of the type XIII swords that hand and a half swords did already exist in the 13th century (and even before) and that there were some representations of this type in medieval works of art. It's said that we can see a knight using a sword with two hands in the Tenison Psalter, but I've not access to this source.
So, could someone post that picture from the Tenison Psalter, or any other evidence of a bastard sword (I mean a sword that we can hold with two hands, not a long sword) from the 13th C. or before?

Thanks,

David
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Tenison Psalter and 13th C. bastard swords         Reply with quote

David Etienne wrote:
Hi all,

I've read in the review of the type XIII swords that hand and a half swords did already exist in the 13th century (and even before) and that there were some representations of this type in medieval works of art. It's said that we can see a knight using a sword with two hands in the Tenison Psalter, but I've not access to this source.
So, could someone post that picture from the Tenison Psalter, or any other evidence of a bastard sword (I mean a sword that we can hold with two hands, not a long sword) from the 13th C. or before?

Thanks,

David


David,
I spent several hours trying to track down images of the Tenison Psalter online when I was writing that spotlight article. I couldn't find that image. Oakeshott included line drawings of that illustration in Sword in Hand and Sword in the Age of Chivalry, though.

Our spotlight shows one example that Oakeshott dates much earlier than most:

Quote:
XIIIa.5 From the Glasgow Museum and Art Gallery
This is an example of a sword that does not fit neatly into any single category. The long and narrow fuller of the 35" blade is much like an Oakeshott Type XI, but because of the sword's proportions, it is placed into the Type XIIIa group. The cross-guard is also an earlier style, known as a Gaddhjalt or "Spike-hilt" form, and is most common amongst Viking swords. Oakeshott dates this example early for the type at circa 1200-50, or perhaps even as early as 1100.


A&A's 12th Century Sword is based on the one referenced above.

Happy

ChadA

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Daniel Parry




Location: UK
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I spent a little time trying to track it down for you but couldn't find it. The British Library have a couple of the images on their site but not that one (I think the original is in their collection isn't it ?). I you really want it badly, I wonder whether you could send them an email and ask if they have an image. As it's such a huge academic research library and the originals are so delicate, it wouldn't surprise me if they had copied the images so people could see them for research purposes without mauling the original with greasy fingers.
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David Etienne




Location: Ittre, Belgium
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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad, Daniel, thank you for your answer !

I'll send a mail to the British Library, we never know...

In addition, I will ask them if the page containing the drawing of that particular knight and sword was made in 1284 (when they began to make the Tenison Psalter) or circa 1316 (when it was finally achieved).

But is there other period artwork proving that bastard swords did exist in the 13th century?

Cheers,

David
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 8:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Apparently, this document is no longer known as the Tenison Psalter. It's now known either by the manuscript number or as the Alphonso Psalter. Try searching for the latter. Here are five images from the British Library site:

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/...so+Psalter

And...is this the image in question? See a bigger version at http://www.oakeshott.org:



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membutt.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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David Etienne




Location: Ittre, Belgium
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
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Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 154

PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Thanks for the link and the picture ! I don't know if it's the right one but it really seems to be, according to the description given in Chad's article.

I've already searched for the Alphonso Psalter. Alphonso was the son of Edward the 1rst, king of England and the Psalter was commissioned for celebrating his marriage, but he died right before it.

David
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Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They found a two handed sword from a river bank in my birth village in Finland, in the 1800's. I asked for more information about it from the Kuopio museum of cultural history where it is on display. The information they sent me stated that it was from circa 1200 and was probably owned by some Karelian merchant. I haven't seen it live, but the crappy pic and the measurements they sent me, would indicate it to be a fine example of XIIa. I have no idea why they consider it to be from exactly that time.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Apparently, this document is no longer known as the Tenison Psalter. It's now known either by the manuscript number or as the Alphonso Psalter. Try searching for the latter. Here are five images from the British Library site:

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/...so+Psalter

And...is this the image in question? See a bigger version at http://www.oakeshott.org:


Sean,
That's the image. The Lepaaho Viking grave finds showed at least one great sword. So they did exist earlier than is commonly thought, though they weren't especially popular until the 13th century.

Happy

ChadA

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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Mon 03 Feb, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Folio f17r
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Add_MS_24686



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tpf17r.jpg

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