Somebody wrote that mortslag is mentioned only in Talhoffer and is an out-of-place technique.

It's not true. From my research it seems that Mortslag (or donnerslag in other texts) is everpresent when fighting in armour. You can find it in any text dealing with armoured combat - Lignitzer, Hundsfeld, Gladiatoria, Czynner... Even Fiore says that in armour you should turn your sword into an axe...

Lignitzer has Mortslags delivered from head to ankle, and believe me - when thrown at the proper time and distance, this thing works.

Don't apologize on your form, Joachim! Hey, anyone with the guts to post their bouting on the internet deserves credit for doing so!

Bart Walczak wrote:

Somebody wrote that mortslag is mentioned only in Talhoffer and is an out-of-place technique.

Hi Bart,
You might be referring to me, and if so, that isn't what I meant. I meant that Talhoffer shows it a lot in the blossfechten section, moreso than most masters when discussing fighting out of harness. Believe me, I totally agree with you about "turning your sword into an axe" when discussing armor!

Hi Bill !

As Joachims punching bag I can tell you that he´s form wasn´t that bad, but normaly I would not get such an easy hit as I do in that clip. What the cameraguys missed was when he got a bit warm in his clothes and landed a pretty strong knee in my guts when I got cocky and thought I could get him in Kampfringen insted of hack him down with my dagger....

hehe

On gripping the pommel or not... I spent last Saturday's practice session specifically experimenting with both ways (Purpleheart longsword wasters with scent-stopper pommels, with and without gloves). Based on this alone, it seems to me that having the hands closer together gives you better speed and maneuverability in arcing cuts, such as would be employed with an earlier "grete warsword", while gripping the pommel increases point control and leverage, and would thus be more desirable for the later, more thrust-oriented schools of longsword combat. I also feel it makes quick, short snapping cuts with the front or false edge more effective, while the hands-closer approach feels more comfortable for doing "moulinets" and similar things.

Overall, as a gross generalization, one could say that the wider hand-space lends itself better to short, linear techniques, while the tighter grip is more suited to flowing, circular motions. (To me, this seems to echo a vague sort of general trend in the historical development of European swordsmanship at large. Interesting to note is that, somewhat more recently, Korean swordsmanship went through a similar change from a hands-close-together grip to a more widely spaced one as influences from Japan and elsewhere kept creeping in.)

Possibly one reason for the decreasing popularity of, and the scent-stopper's triumph over, the less-grippable wheel pommel as we move from Medieval times towards the Renaissance...?

Hi Joachim!

Donnerschlag, Mortschlag, and Schlachenden Ort (Battering Point) are all different terms for the same blow. Martin Huntfeltz calls it Donnerschlag, Andres Lignitzer calls it Mortschlag (and describes targeting several parts of the body with it, as well as how to counter each variant), and Liechtenauer himself calls it Schlachenden Ort. It is interesting that Talhoffer uses two of those terms within the same manuscript.

All the best,

Christian

I second Christian, but there might be something in Talhoffer too...

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

*bump*

Just thought that I'd update you gentelmen on the status of the "Talhoffer project" Martin and I mentioned earlier in this thread:

All the interpreted techniques are filmed. The material just have to be edited, some reshoots have to be done and text and plate material added. Without going out too much on a limb here I think it's pretty safe to say that we'll be good to go late Q1/early Q2 of this year.

Hey, very cool, Joachim! That's funny, I was just thinking about your project yesterday.

Not on the technique itself, no. Though based on some discussions with others, I no longer believe Talhoffer's fechtbuch is an advertisment like I stated way back when. There's too much evidence against that line of thought. Rather, it appears to be more of a collection of techniques for his patron, Leutold von Konigsegg, and his other students to use as a memory aid, so to speak, of certain "tricks". I still don't think of it as a "manual" in the modern sense of the word, in that it does describe the foundation of the art, but rather a "reference guide". :)

The Talhoffer project has been put on hiatus indefinately.