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Alina Boyden
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 Posted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: Turkish swords |
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Here are some turkish swords from my Topkapi museum book. Since I don't have homework tonight, I've decided to show off my favorite saber/early kilij types and one from Mehmed II which I just love. There are far more beautiful swords in this book than I can scan and post in a night so these are just some of the highlights.
The first scan is my favorite sword of Mehmed II dated to the 15th century. The sword is only 81cm long with a blade length of just 61cm. Unfortunately, the book doesn't list the weight of the weapon nor the astonishing blade width. I tried to measure it but couldn't get past a rough guess of the blade being wider than 2 inches. I think it is close to 2.5 but it's hard to tell.
The second scan is also attributed to Mehmed II, the conqueror of Constantinople. This sword is 126.5cm overall with a 106cm blade. Again, there is no listed weight. I personally find this one to be a very "wicked" looking weapon. It just seems lethal. Edit: this one is at the end and needs to be downloaded to view. The hilt detail is showing as the second scan.
The fourth scan is a very early 16th century Mamluk kilij. It is said to be from between 906 and 922AH which is 1501-1517AD. The weapon is 97cm long overall with a blade length of 86cm. The swordsmith was one Ibrahim al-Maliki. I don't know much about later saber designs but this one looks like the mamluk hilt adopted by some militaries for their weapons. (hence the name I guess  )
The last sword I'll be showing tonight is Ottoman late 15th century provenance. I like this sword because it seems to me to be an early and very business-like kilij. It doesn't have the beauty of the Mehmed kilij I showed earlier but it fascinates me. Note the tiny looking grip. The sword is 102cm overall with a blade length of 92cm.
Last edited by Alina Boyden on Fri 06 May, 2005 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I love the third one!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I love the third one! |
The mamluk one you like seems to me that it would be incredibly fast and well balanced and of perfect proportions. But for some reason, my favorite sword in the whole book is the two handed short sword. The blade is short, fat, and kind of ungainly and is only 24 inches long. The eight inch hilt is too long to be really that useful. Although Lloyd Clark did mention that longer hilts aid in cuts from horseback. Nonetheless, the author of the book thinks it was made from a broken sword that was originally much longer.
For the third sword the author said: "This is truly an exquisite example of late Mamluk sword crafsmanship, perfectly balanced in almost every way." I'm inclined to agree, it really is a beauty.
If anyone wants to see mec kilics let me know, I have about four examples of them in this book and they're extremely rare. For those of you that don't know, a mec kilic is often called an Islamic rapier. It looks more like a sword-cane or an estoc than a rapier but it was a pure thrusting design. They're very hard to find documentation on so I was pleased to find both Ottoman and Mamluk examples.
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Mon 11 Apr, 2005 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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bring it on 
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Stefan Toivonen
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| Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Please, post more pics. I never get tired of curved swords
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Here's a fun one. This is a late 15th century Ottoman piece attributed to Sultan Bayezid II. It is 102cm long overall with a blade length of 86cm. I like the Islamic style s-curved quillons as well as the clear fuller which runs the entire length of the blade.
A second one for Patrick - this is another sword of Bayezid II from the late 15th century. The hilt on this sword, like the other one is made from rhinoceros horn - try to get that these days. This one is 101cm overall with an 85cm blade - very close to the first one.
Last edited by Alina Boyden on Fri 06 May, 2005 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | Here's a fun one. This is a late 15th century Ottoman piece attributed to Sultan Bayezid II. It is 102cm long overall with a blade length of 86cm. I like the Islamic style s-curved quillons as well as the clear fuller which runs the entire length of the blade.
A second one for Patrick - this is another sword of Bayezid II from the late 15th century. The hilt on this sword, like the other one is made from rhinoceros horn - try to get that these days. This one is 101cm overall with an 85cm blade - very close to the first one. |
Two more great examples. Thanks Alina!
I have to get one of these some day.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 18 Apr, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Sword attributed to Ja'far al-Tayyar (The Flyer) one of the companions of the prophet Muhammad. That would put it in the 7th century AD. This thing is pretty big. 118.6cm long blade that is 6.5cm wide. The hilt is 25.5cm long and the CoB is 35.2cm out (seems kind of far on all of these swords...wonder how he measured it). Weight of sword without scabbard is 2.85kg. Again, pretty heavy. But hey, it looks neat.
Last edited by Alina Boyden on Fri 06 May, 2005 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 18 Apr, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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It makes sense now!! Patrick, your PJ sword has a "pivot point" listed as a dimension. What is that? This is the measurement I keep interpreting as a CoB on the swords in my book. It says "fulcrum point" which is the same thing as a pivot point. How is this different from CoB?
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 18 Apr, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | It makes sense now!! Patrick, your PJ sword has a "pivot point" listed as a dimension. What is that? This is the measurement I keep interpreting as a CoB on the swords in my book. It says "fulcrum point" which is the same thing as a pivot point. How is this different from CoB? |
The center of balance is the same as the center of gravity, ie., the point upon which the weight of the sword is evenly balanced. This will typically be found some inches in front of the guard.
The pivot point is indeed the spot upon which the sword will act like a fulcrum, or pivot back and forth upon itself. This is typically within a few inches of the point. I believe that a sword can have more than one pivot point, but the one we typically focus on is the one near the point because this is the one that influences point control and responsiveness. Often the pivot point will be near or coincide with the blade's center of percussion. The CoP is also known as the blade's primary node of vibration or "sweet spot" where the maximum amount of force can be transmitted to the target during a blow.
The easiest way to find a blade's center of percussion is to hold it in front of you with the blade pointed up. Striking the pommel with the heel of your hand will cause the blade to vibrate. The area near the tip where the blade doesn't vibrate is the CoP. On a fullered blade this will often be near the end of the fuller.
Likewise, the easiest way I've found to find a sword's pivot point is as follows: hold the sword by the grip with your thumb and index finger, with the blade hanging down. Slowly move the blade back and forth sideways. There will be a point near the blade's tip (on some swords at the tip itself) where the sword will be pivoting back and forth upon itself. This is the Pivot Point.
If anyone has a better or clearer way of explaining this please feel free to elaborate.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 18 Apr, 2005 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks! That helps a whole lot. Now I don't picture these swords as being obscenely tip heavy.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 6:27 am Post subject: |
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I've been trying for ages to find good full photos of that second sword. According to "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (which also has one of the very few color photos I've found, and the only full one) it's a heavy two-handed scimitar that belonged to Mehmet the Conqueror, with his genealogy lavishly inscribed in gold all along the fuller, and is one of the most beautiful edged weapons I've seen... Thanks for the measurements, too!
Don't you just love that massive spear point? 
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | I've been trying for ages to find good full photos of that second sword. According to "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (which also has one of the very few color photos I've found, and the only full one) it's a heavy two-handed scimitar that belonged to Mehmet the Conqueror, with his genealogy lavishly inscribed in gold all along the fuller, and is one of the most beautiful edged weapons I've seen... Thanks for the measurements, too!
Don't you just love that massive spear point? |
Indeed I do! That's one of my very favorite kilij style swords.
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This is a standard topic