[Elio Pestana]

After trying a bit to understand the entire mess that is middle eastern swords during the Medieval period, i ran into a bit of a weird mess. As you probably know, the "ancestral", pre-Islamic sword was straight and double-edged, and while some details differ, its a fairly recogniseable design, kinda hard to get wrong. Though they're not really common, i've seen example sort of like this around the 11th century, and they seemed to be fairly common.

However, if you fast forward a few centuries, then suddenly EVERYONE is using some sort of curved saber; be it a kilij or a shamshir, it seems ubiquitous and more conventional looking-swords aren't really seen anymore.
The big question this brings up for me is how & when did it end replacing the old straight swords in Arab-dominated lands like Syria/Iraq and Egypt ?

I know that sabers were in use already around the 7th century AD by Turks/Mongols and were seen as far as in Hungary to the West, and that civlizations like the Sassanids already had vaguely similar armament before their conquest by the Abbasids, but how the transition happened in the more western part of the region remains a mystery for me. I think it could have something to do with Turkish conquests as well as their increasing influence on the region, but that's just my own hypothesis and i'm fairly certain i'm missing a bigger piece of the picture.

Thanks in advance,
Elio Pestana

[Dan Kary]

I've dipped my toe into this mess and it seems to me (and please please please somebody correct me if I have this wrong!) that the straight Arab swords came about when the Turks or other central Asians showed up. The Arab sword transformation started out with a slight curve and just got more and more curved as time went on (what we might call a shamshir seems to appear, at least in significant numbers, much later). The adoption of them was, I think, just a matter of them being so successful and the medieval Arabs, being a practical people, decided that it was a good idea.

When it comes to the kilij in particular, it seems that there is something of a debate about whether this was also a Turkish innovation or whether the Mamluks modified the curved swords coming in from the Turks into what is the kilij or whether the Turks invented it from their own swords and the Mamluks adopted it very early. If the Mamluks invented it, it would be the Turks bringing in curved swords, others adopting it and modifying it, and then the Turks adopting the modification...however, this seems to be an ongoing debate and I think the side that the Turks invented the Kilij is probably the more prevalent position. These also see a deepening of curves. If you look at the kilij from around the time of Mehmed II and compare this to later examples, you can see quite a difference.

I've got a ton of books on my shelf to get through and I am sure I'll know more in about a year...

[Sean Manning]

Have you looked at Khorasani's book on arms and armour from Iran? IIRC he shows lots of straight Iranian swords after the rise of the deeply curved shamshir such as the qama (see chapter 10).

Starting in the 11th century or so Turkish military fashions became more and more influential in the Islamic world because many of the best soldiers in those countries had Turkish backgrounds. IIRC, sabres were one of those fashions. I don't think one type of sword transformed into the other, I think that Southwest Asia had a very old tradition of straight two-edged swords (often rather short) while after about 200 BCE Central Asians often liked sabres (Parthian swords often resemble Han Chinese dao).

[Ryan S.]

How different are the Arabian straight swords compared to European straight swords? I know some sources claim that they were basically identical, but I suspect that they are downplaying the difference for reasons.

[Dan Kary]

The hilts were pretty different - the hilts of straight Arab swords had the cross guard with the lugs that you see on later curved versions. The grips were very often curved, again, like with the later curved swords. But in the days of the straight sword, and the early days of the curved sword, you don't see (or see often) the big ball (which is probably more of a Turkish or Persian thing anyways) or aggressive hook that you see in later curved Arab swords. Instead you see a more gentle curve with a pommel cap. Some have a little bump midway to keep the hand from sliding back - this is true of both the straight and early curved versions. You can definitely see an evolution/progression from these to a later saif that people still use today for sword dancing, ceremonies, etc.

The blades were pretty straight and broad - so similar to some European swords but not all. They often had long fullers.

[Sean Manning]

[Dan Kary]

Now that kind of makes me wonder...at the time of straight Arab swords, the blades in Europe were, straight, pretty wide, and with big fullers weren't they? I wonder how many came from Europe and just got hilted in the Arab style. I've heard this happening within Europe quite a bit (German blades, as an example, finding their way to places like Ireland and Scotland and getting hilted in the local style) so why not further afield? I think that at least at the time of curved blades in Arabia, that many came from India and Persia.

[Ryan S.]

[Teodor Vacev]

When it comes to the Middle East, and Egypt and Syria in particular, things are a little more complex than a simple explanation of a time period, during which the saber is introduced and completely replaces the broadsword. The broadsword was not really phased out until the Ottoman conquest, and was used along with sabers.

Early Islamic swords were straight and most likely derived from Eastern Roman spathas. Later, during the height of the Abbasids Al-Kindi published a treaty on swords, describing various swords, most of which were straight, double edged broadsword types. The saber was introduced by Turkic warriors, many of which served as ghulams in various armies. However, broadswords continued to be used along with sabers even in places like Mameluke Egypt and Syria - it is notable that the Kingdom of Cyprus was paying a tribute in European sword blades as late as the 15th century, and those were prized and kept in the Mameluke arsenal in Alexandria. On top of that, local broadswords known as "saif Badawi" were also made and used, even if in a more ceremonial context. In some more isolated places like Oman or Sudan the saber was not really adopted until the 19th century.

If you really want to learn more about this subject, a good book on the topic is "A Study of the Eastern Sword" by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac.

[Dan Kary]

[Teodor Vacev]

I do not have Rivkin's book in front of me this very moment, but I recall that one of the swords he shows there has a European blade on a Mameluke style hilt, but without the inscriptions found on the Alexandria arsenal swords, which typically state who gave the sword to the arsenal. Here is a picture of Mameluke "saif badawi" swords in the collection of the Askeri Museum in Istanbul, which show the typical Mameluke hilt of the 14-15 centuries. It is quite possible that not all of the swords taken from the Kingdom of Cyprus made it into the arsenal and some may have been hilted in Egypt. Then there is the question if by this time these were meant to be used in battle or were more of a ceremonial nature/status symbols, kind of like the jinettas of the Nasrids in Andalusia.