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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2022 7:48 pm    Post subject: Fiction question: how to break a rapier blade         Reply with quote

Hi! I'm writing a novel manuscript with my wife, set in the 1610's and the main protagonist has fought an involuntary duel with his friend and ended up almost killing him. In the scene after this, he breaks his rapier. However, I don't want him to break it in the old Hollywood style against the knee, but something more realistic. Would heating the blade up in a regular tile stove (room heating stove) destroy the temper enough for the blade to break when stepped on? Or is there some other, more suitable method you might suggest?

(Note: We have published historical fiction novels already, but we write mainly in Finnish...)
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T. Kew




Location: London, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2022 4:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Heating up a blade and letting it cool in air (annealing it) will make it softer - this makes it a lot easier to bend, but actually harder to break. Heating it then quenching it could make it more brittle, but probably the easiest way to go is to thrust it between two very solid objects (e.g. a tree trunk + heavy branch) and then crank on it until it snaps at that point.
HEMA fencer and coach, New Cross Historical Fencing
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2022 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Breaking the sword over the knee was not invented by Hollywood. It was done in degradation ceremonies for officers, the most famous example is that of Dreyfuss. The swords were filed so that it was very easy to break. There are also some historical accounts of breaking swords, but it isn't clear how it was done. It is possible that in some accounts, break actually meant bend.
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Victor R.




Location: Klein, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2022 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is speculative, but after seeing some of the results of water quenching on a popular program, one might consider heating the blade and quenching in water. If I understand the physics of it, the water cools the steel too quickly and forms an almost crystalline grain structure in the steel that makes it more brittle and more prone to breaking rather than flexing. If I recall correctly, quenching at a temperature that is "too hot" will exacerbate the problem.

"He then took the now brittle blade and struck the low stone wall until it shattered. The blade that nearly took the life of one he held dear would never harm another."
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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2022 7:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the responses! Good ideas there! I'll just have to select the most suitable one for the scenario. Happy
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David Kite




Location: Clinton, IN USA
Joined: 20 Feb 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2022 3:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joseph Swetnam (the English master writing in 1617), advised against cutting with swords or rapiers because of their propensity to break or fly out of their hilts. I would assume that's something he had either experienced or witnessed. So, you could just have the protagonist strike against something like stone, which is something he might do out of anger or shame after the duel anyway?

Just a thought.
David Kite
ARMA Terre Haute, IN
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Dan D'Silva





Joined: 28 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2022 3:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How hot do tile stoves get?
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2022 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to this, rapiers are breakable, but not fragile.
https://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm
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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2022 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good points on the breakability of a rapier blade. I read the ARMA piece and the detail about the narrow points breaking off with a good strike against an immovable object is a good one. Swetnam's point is also a good one - but I thiink he is mostly talking about the narrower, thrust-focussed transitional rapiers (his fighting style, iirc, was based on quick advances, retreats and thrusts instead of staying in measure and finding the opponent's blade). Our protagonist is a nobleman, but also a military man, so his rapier is both high quality and probably of the sturdier variety.

Also, I'm looking for something more methodical and determined for the mindset of the character. He hates what he has done, the lost friendship, and wants to punish himself by destroying something that he has been carrying and loving for years.

It is very difficult to find information on tile stoves / masonry heaters and their internal heat. I've read info spanning from a 1000F to 2000F, but I'm uncertain if they refer to modern constructions or period pieces. But I do get the sense that you can raise the temperature quite high, if you feed enough wood into it.

IF the temperature get high enough, I suppose the protagonist might focus on heating a short section of the blade and then pouring water on it from a pitcher, thus causing very uneven cooling. Would that result in the metal cracking on the edges of the blade (narrower parts of the blade) or might the result be something more catastrophic?

Still brainstorming about this, however... Might be that the best option is simply to strike the flat of the blade against a masonry windowsill enough times to break the sword... He is, after all, in a castle chamber with stone walls all around him...
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Victor R.




Location: Klein, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul, 2022 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marko Susimetsa wrote:
Good points on the breakability of a rapier blade. I read the ARMA piece and the detail about the narrow points breaking off with a good strike against an immovable object is a good one. Swetnam's point is also a good one - but I thiink he is mostly talking about the narrower, thrust-focussed transitional rapiers (his fighting style, iirc, was based on quick advances, retreats and thrusts instead of staying in measure and finding the opponent's blade). Our protagonist is a nobleman, but also a military man, so his rapier is both high quality and probably of the sturdier variety.

Also, I'm looking for something more methodical and determined for the mindset of the character. He hates what he has done, the lost friendship, and wants to punish himself by destroying something that he has been carrying and loving for years.

It is very difficult to find information on tile stoves / masonry heaters and their internal heat. I've read info spanning from a 1000F to 2000F, but I'm uncertain if they refer to modern constructions or period pieces. But I do get the sense that you can raise the temperature quite high, if you feed enough wood into it.

IF the temperature get high enough, I suppose the protagonist might focus on heating a short section of the blade and then pouring water on it from a pitcher, thus causing very uneven cooling. Would that result in the metal cracking on the edges of the blade (narrower parts of the blade) or might the result be something more catastrophic?

Still brainstorming about this, however... Might be that the best option is simply to strike the flat of the blade against a masonry windowsill enough times to break the sword... He is, after all, in a castle chamber with stone walls all around him...


How does this sound - it would have to be in a winter timeframe, though: your protagonist lights a raging fire - it doesn't necessarily have to be in an oven as coal forge fires can get hot enough to melt iron left in too long - and leaves his blade in the fire until it achieves a bright orange or yellow (can't remember what color indicates "too hot"), he plunges the too hot blade into a snowbank, then slams the too-quickly-cooled blade into a large stone or stone wall, causing it to shatter.

I believe the physics are plausible and it makes a good story, even if it does bring up thoughts of Conan the Barbarian...

There are articles about the Conan snow-quench scene that discuss the physics of it and why it's a really bad way to do things, so that might help you with your ideas.
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Marko Susimetsa




Location: Finland
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul, 2022 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
There are articles about the Conan snow-quench scene that discuss the physics of it and why it's a really bad way to do things, so that might help you with your ideas.

Thank you! That led me to a lot of interesting reading! Happy
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