For those who want an interesting insight into what it may have looked like as part of a soldiers overall attire can look at the Angus McBride color plate of a Seljuk Soldier/Mercenary in the Osprey book Byzantine Armies 886-1118. In fact it was this plate that made me search out a similar replica. The only difference is that the Turk wields a horsemans version which has the same Mace head but a much longer shaft (maybe as much as 1.5ft longer). Once you have handled it you can only imagine the damage it could wreak from horseback.
I am glad someone finally reviewed this mace. I bought this same piece years ago and i agree that it is one to own. I have often thought about reshafting it to the longer Horsemans Mace featured in the book. :)
Sincerely,
Norlyn
| Norlyn C wrote: |
| For those who want an interesting insight into what it may have looked like as part of a soldiers overall attire can look at the Angus McBride color plate of a Seljuk Soldier/Mercenary in the Osprey book Byzantine Armies 886-1118. In fact it was this plate that made me search out a similar replica. The only difference is that the Turk wields a horsemans version which has the same Mace head but a much longer shaft (maybe as much as 1.5ft longer). Once you have handled it you can only imagine the damage it could wreak from horseback.
I am glad someone finally reviewed this mace. I bought this same piece years ago and i agree that it is one to own. I have often thought about reshafting it to the longer Horsemans Mace featured in the book. :) Sincerely, Norlyn |
Welcome to the site and forum. :D
Just a few wonderings / questions about the longer handle: With the short handle I find it's not overly ponderous to recover reasonably easily quickly and change the direction of the mace i.e. not as slow as one would think. :surprised:
One thing I've noticed is that if I hold the mace with about a foot of handle below the hand the part of the handle almost reaching the tip of the elbow can be used as a " brake " and support instead of all the weight and momentum being controlled by the hand. Now since the handle is fairly short one does sacrifice some reach but a mace like this can be used much more subtlety than just simple bashing: Bashing does give you the most energy on target but close in the shortened grip gives you " options ". ( I may be repeating here a bit from my earlier post(s).
With a handle 1.5 ft longer I see
1) Extra reach from horseback for fully committed blows.
2) The shortened grip with the longer handle gives you the technique possibilities I just mentioned and a reach equal to holding the short handle at its' end with a little counter balancing from the part of the handle below the hand plus the support of the forearm on the handle.
3) Foot combat the option of using twohanded blows with decent reach. ( Possible with the short version but at the cost of reach.
4) The handle from grip to elbow could be used to block or parry in the way a reversed Sai can be used. ( The trident type martial arts weapon usually uses in pairs. )
Just my imaginings and there are probably a lot of things I haven't thought of.
If someone wants a longer handle I would ask Craig at A & A about it and what the extra cost would be :?:
Hello all!
There is another Osprey plate by Angus McBride, based on period art, that also shows an interesting view of a mace like the Arms & Armour Iberian mace in the hands of an armoured warrior.
The figure appears in Plate C in El Cid and the Reconquista 1050-1492 by David Nicolle. The scene depicts a thirteenth-century encounter between a Leonese knight, and Andalusian lady, and an Almohade footsoldier. The knight is getting clobbered over the head by the lady's oud. The knight's mace, with a spiked head just like the Arms & Armour Iberian mace, is falling out of his hand. The knight is armed in a flat-topped great helm, long-sleeved hauberk without mail "mufflers" on the hands, an early coat-of-plates over the hauberk, and mail chausses. He holds a shield in his left hand.
Details of the knight's equipment are, in part, based upon illuminations in the late 12th-early 13th century Catalonian manuscript Beatus Commentaries on the Apocalypse. Nicolle has drawing from this manuscript in Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350: Western Europe and the Crusader States. One figure of an armoured warrior shows a possible early coat-of-plates (the garment is rather short, with no sleeves, a scalloped hem, and rows of dots that possibly represent rivets), hauberk, flat-topped helm, and shield. The warrior holds a spiked mace, but the head appears to be round instead of cylindrical.
I know Osprey colour plates are in no way "primary sources", and there are those with a strong dislike for Nicolle's input regarding western European equipment, but I thought I would share this as a possible example of a depiction of this sort of mace.
Stay safe!
There is another Osprey plate by Angus McBride, based on period art, that also shows an interesting view of a mace like the Arms & Armour Iberian mace in the hands of an armoured warrior.
The figure appears in Plate C in El Cid and the Reconquista 1050-1492 by David Nicolle. The scene depicts a thirteenth-century encounter between a Leonese knight, and Andalusian lady, and an Almohade footsoldier. The knight is getting clobbered over the head by the lady's oud. The knight's mace, with a spiked head just like the Arms & Armour Iberian mace, is falling out of his hand. The knight is armed in a flat-topped great helm, long-sleeved hauberk without mail "mufflers" on the hands, an early coat-of-plates over the hauberk, and mail chausses. He holds a shield in his left hand.
Details of the knight's equipment are, in part, based upon illuminations in the late 12th-early 13th century Catalonian manuscript Beatus Commentaries on the Apocalypse. Nicolle has drawing from this manuscript in Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350: Western Europe and the Crusader States. One figure of an armoured warrior shows a possible early coat-of-plates (the garment is rather short, with no sleeves, a scalloped hem, and rows of dots that possibly represent rivets), hauberk, flat-topped helm, and shield. The warrior holds a spiked mace, but the head appears to be round instead of cylindrical.
I know Osprey colour plates are in no way "primary sources", and there are those with a strong dislike for Nicolle's input regarding western European equipment, but I thought I would share this as a possible example of a depiction of this sort of mace.
Stay safe!
Hello all!
I just ran across this image while I was searching for surcoat images for another thread. I noticed that one of the knights is wielding a spiked mace somewhat similar in style to the Arms & Armour Iberian mace. I just thought I would share it here for those interested in a period "in action" view of that sort of weapon.
Note the mace in the hands of the knight in the right-hand portion of the battle scene. It does look similar to the Arms & Armour Iberian mace. The figure is also interesting becasue, although the mace doesn't seem to have an overly-long haft, the knight appears to be wielding it in two hands.
Attachment: 61.75 KB
Maciejowski Bible, circa 1250.
I just ran across this image while I was searching for surcoat images for another thread. I noticed that one of the knights is wielding a spiked mace somewhat similar in style to the Arms & Armour Iberian mace. I just thought I would share it here for those interested in a period "in action" view of that sort of weapon.
Note the mace in the hands of the knight in the right-hand portion of the battle scene. It does look similar to the Arms & Armour Iberian mace. The figure is also interesting becasue, although the mace doesn't seem to have an overly-long haft, the knight appears to be wielding it in two hands.
Attachment: 61.75 KBMaciejowski Bible, circa 1250.
Richard,
Do you have a copy of the "Beatus Commentary" with the picture of the mace. I've just had a look at "Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era" by David nicolle and the shape is very close to the one in the Maciejowski Bible but I think it is quite a bit different from the AA's replica.
If you have the picture that would be good.
Do you have a copy of the "Beatus Commentary" with the picture of the mace. I've just had a look at "Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era" by David nicolle and the shape is very close to the one in the Maciejowski Bible but I think it is quite a bit different from the AA's replica.
If you have the picture that would be good.
I'm going to practice some serious thread necromancy here. I tried contacting A&A about the source that inspired this mace but unfortunately got no response. Does anyone have any manuscript miniatures that represent this specific type of mace?
I managed to find decent sources for the more popular and lighter maces, where the head weighs 200-300 grams. I have never seen any historical examples anywhere online of maces of this weight ~700g.
I managed to find decent sources for the more popular and lighter maces, where the head weighs 200-300 grams. I have never seen any historical examples anywhere online of maces of this weight ~700g.
I would also be curious to hear more about inspirations for this piece.
I just got mine back from A&A (it went years after the haft broke)
Anyway I didn’t remember how heavy this mace is. Compared to my Tods foundry early medieval mace - this thing is an entirely different animal.
I had a grip shape cut into the base of the haft. I can just see this thing flying out of a combatants hand in a swing. It really needs that extra grip.
It’s a monster- that’s for sure
I just got mine back from A&A (it went years after the haft broke)
Anyway I didn’t remember how heavy this mace is. Compared to my Tods foundry early medieval mace - this thing is an entirely different animal.
I had a grip shape cut into the base of the haft. I can just see this thing flying out of a combatants hand in a swing. It really needs that extra grip.
It’s a monster- that’s for sure
I have randomly found a picture showing a very similar piece, used in both hands. All of this while watching a completely unrelated video. So here it is, the only manuscript miniature I have seen that shows this type of mace. Enjoy!
1min39seconds in the video below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o8jxX7vkOs
Maybe this was actually meant to be a two handed weapon. The heft is indeed barely wieldable with one hand but it also requires one to adapt and get creative with your technique. You have to constantly keep it in motion and let the mace accelerate itself from one strike to another. It does indeed need an extra grippy grip if one does not want to accidentally remove some windows/screens/sculptures from the training area :P
1min39seconds in the video below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o8jxX7vkOs
Maybe this was actually meant to be a two handed weapon. The heft is indeed barely wieldable with one hand but it also requires one to adapt and get creative with your technique. You have to constantly keep it in motion and let the mace accelerate itself from one strike to another. It does indeed need an extra grippy grip if one does not want to accidentally remove some windows/screens/sculptures from the training area :P
Hello Guys
Sorry just caught tis thread. We are devilishly busy at the shop and my screen time is down to a minimum. This is an interesting piece as it was something we started doing way back. Mainly working from images and reference material. There was an Osprey book about early knights in Italy or Iberia and one of the McBride images had a depiction of the mace and a reference so we worked from that figuring he had seen an image to base the illustration on. Many years later we got some reference material from an exhibit where the piece was on display and found it our piece probably fell pretty short of the original. But we ad not enough to go on to really redo it and have been planning to replace this piece with another, possibly one of the ones from Dublin, but we have not had time to do so as yet and there is a continued demand for these especially at Shows so we have kept it in the mix till we get a chance to do a better version of a hafted mace.
Sorry just caught tis thread. We are devilishly busy at the shop and my screen time is down to a minimum. This is an interesting piece as it was something we started doing way back. Mainly working from images and reference material. There was an Osprey book about early knights in Italy or Iberia and one of the McBride images had a depiction of the mace and a reference so we worked from that figuring he had seen an image to base the illustration on. Many years later we got some reference material from an exhibit where the piece was on display and found it our piece probably fell pretty short of the original. But we ad not enough to go on to really redo it and have been planning to replace this piece with another, possibly one of the ones from Dublin, but we have not had time to do so as yet and there is a continued demand for these especially at Shows so we have kept it in the mix till we get a chance to do a better version of a hafted mace.
So I am wondering is this piece largely ahistorical? It's pretty heavy and doesn't feel like other maces I have encountered.
Maybe it's a "historically plausible" piece. . . Would be nice to have an early type represented.
The reproductions out there are really interesting. We have Tod's examples which are really pretty light- quite light. I can see a weapon like this knocking someone out and likely causing a brain injury but wouldn't outright kill them. Then we have the A&A piece which would damn near take someone's head off.
Maybe it's a "historically plausible" piece. . . Would be nice to have an early type represented.
The reproductions out there are really interesting. We have Tod's examples which are really pretty light- quite light. I can see a weapon like this knocking someone out and likely causing a brain injury but wouldn't outright kill them. Then we have the A&A piece which would damn near take someone's head off.
Everything testifies against historical authenticity of this mace, even it's designer has now turned against it :D It's still a cool object though. I like the looks, especially after A&A decided to provide a thicker haft with the mace. Even though it will be easier to break with a thinned out section inside the head.
I must admit that I have been thinking about a modification. It's possible to cut the mace in half, widen the hole inside a bit and voila - two historically accurate mace heads weighing around 300g each :)
But it's a tough choice, keep it as it is and have a unique mace that is a great training tool or get two-in-one instead ;)
I must admit that I have been thinking about a modification. It's possible to cut the mace in half, widen the hole inside a bit and voila - two historically accurate mace heads weighing around 300g each :)
But it's a tough choice, keep it as it is and have a unique mace that is a great training tool or get two-in-one instead ;)
I had mine from KoA almost ten years ago. It took me almost four years of bash and abuse to finally break the shaft. Interestingly the haft broke after I threw it against a wall, and this is the ash shaft from A&A. I had the head set on a hickory shaft and abused it for another six years and still not broken.
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
| We have Tod's examples which are really pretty light- quite light. I can see a weapon like this knocking someone out and likely causing a brain injury but wouldn't outright kill them. Then we have the A&A piece which would damn near take someone's head off. |
I think we don't really understand maces. Once upon a time, I received a crush injury to my forearm from a piece of square steel tubing. Although I still bear the scar, the impact neither broke the skin or bone. It did put me down on the floor within a minute trying to implement first aid for shock. By the time I got to the ER, my body temp had dropped drastically. A similar blow to the head, even through a helmet, might produce a concussion without any other apparent injury. Either condition might prove fatal in close quarters combat. Maces don't have to be heavy enough to break bone to be incapacitating.
| Mart Shearer wrote: | ||
I think we don't really understand maces. Once upon a time, I received a crush injury to my forearm from a piece of square steel tubing. Although I still bear the scar, the impact neither broke the skin or bone. It did put me down on the floor within a minute trying to implement first aid for shock. By the time I got to the ER, my body temp had dropped drastically. A similar blow to the head, even through a helmet, might produce a concussion without any other apparent injury. Either condition might prove fatal in close quarters combat. Maces don't have to be heavy enough to break bone to be incapacitating. |
I'm not an expert on injuries but I guessing that even if there was no breaking of the skin or breakage of bones there may have been some trauma to any nerves being compressed, also surface crush damage to the bone that even if not producing any breakage or even hairline cracks the blow really activated a lot of pain receptors ....... OUCH .... :cry: :eek:
Now, even if the actual damage was limited to bruising if it caused a serious drop in blood pressure the blow did throw you in a state of shock that in itself can be life threatening !
Now, with adrenaline up during an actual fight you might not have gone into shock immediately, but the stopping power of a blunt trauma hit might have stopped you in your tracks faster than even a serious cut ?
Weight for a mace may be more important if one is hitting someone in plate armour, but if hitting someone with no armour or limited armour to cloth or maille a lighter headed mace may be better in un-armoured combat due to greater recovery speed compared to a heavier mace !
I do have the A&A Iberian mace and it's still an interesting object even if it's historical accuracy is now up for debate !
I guess still good for " The Zombie Apocalypse " ..... ;) :lol:
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