[Jonathan Hodge]

I’m preparing to make a scabbard belt for a sword and would like to try the “Z” style often seen in 12th-13th century. I’m wondering if anyone has made it in one piece. I can conceive of how to make it in two pieces, but it would greet or make it one.

An example can be seen in ONB Cod.507 Reiner Musterbuch, f003r.

[Lloyd Winter]

Here’s how I made my version of that.
It’s actually 3 pieces, one strap each for the top and bottom and one piece for the collar.

The pic contains a paper pattern, an unmounted collar, sans straps, and the finished version. The unmounted one came out way too long. I had to do a couple of versions before I got it right.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qgcGm9MNphNzdXUe9

You might also want to take a look at this thread from several years ago.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29560&highlight=

Hope this helps.

[Jonathan Hodge]

Thanks so much for this.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hi Jonathan,

One thing to consider when making a scabbard of this type. If you are going for a scabbard for the 12th. C. the sword would hang vertically. Off set hanging scabbards were not used at that time- at least if we follow the illustrations from the period. Off set belt suspensions begin to show up in the 13th. th. C.

Here is a picture of a scabbard I had mad by Jeff Helmes.



Notice how the scabbard belt has the sword hanging vertically- there is no off set belt at the bottom.

It is based on this example.

[Johannes Zenker]

Curious that the picture in the first post shows an actual "Z" instead of the inverted "Z" we more commonly see.

While I reckon that it might have been a slight lapse on the artist's behalf, it would also be possible to do it that way around... it just seems less convenient and very kludgy with no apparent benefits.

Has anyone ever seen the actual "Z" in an extant example or reproduction?

[Jonathan Hodge]

[quote="Jeremy V. Krause"]Hi Jonathan,

One thing to consider when making a scabbard of this type. If you are going for a scabbard for the 12th. C. the sword would hang vertically. Off set hanging scabbards were not used at that time- at least if we follow the illustrations from the period. Off set belt suspensions begin to show up in the 13th. th. C.

Thanks for this Jeremy. I am looking to do an offset belt suspension like what is seen moving more into 13th century. I failed to make that distinction and I appreciate you clarifying!

[Maciej K.]

Three points:

1) Johannes Zenker is right that we have no other evidence for Z-style, just some depictions on illustrations. That can be just artist lapse, as he said. There are many of them in manuscripts. However, in Morgan Bible, we can see both Z and S style, even on one illustration. Still, no other evidence. No finds, even on more detailed sculptures we always see S style. Actually that is the most reasonable method to keep the upper belt slightly raised (at an angle) and this way keep the sword intentionally at an angle. As far as we will not have finds of the Z style, as far we can`t claim it was used.

2) Jeremy and Jonathan, the off set belting system for scabbards was used since around 1100 and dissapears around 1400. We know depictions from this period range. In 12th century it already is VERY COMMON belting system. Plenty examples Actually even that illustration above is from German 12th century manuscript

3) the "one-piece" of leather method for the off set belting (it is still off set) w know actually from one existing example. It is very nice, but rather not common method with stitching leather as two-layeres together and attaching belts to this. It seems quite strange and does not use full leather strength. The stitch will never give you strength as a solid leather. Simply: why cut off the belts and then stitch them together? I think this could be some later processing / changing or repairing, but that`s just hypothesis at this case.

We can be sure they use many variations of this system, with different lacing the straps, trying some variants, etc. All this we found as far is different and no two the same strapping. What I`m trying to say: we must be cautious and study full spectrum of all available sources, trying to find out WHY it was made like that, instead simple HOW it was made.

[Harry Marinakis]

Maciej
Did you publish your book on scabbards yet?

[Maciej K.]

[Jonathan Hodge]