Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Agamemnon's cuirass Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next 
Author Message
Isak Krogh




Location: Sweden
Joined: 07 Feb 2012

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri 28 Mar, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is so awesome!! Is the shield next on your list? Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Michal Plezia
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Fri 28 Mar, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A work of art.

www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Fri 28 Mar, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isak Krogh wrote:
This is so awesome!! Is the shield next on your list? Big Grin

Helmet next. We've been examining helmets in the book for a few years now and are convinced that Homer is describing kegelhelms.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sat 29 Mar, 2014 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An interesting helmet the kegelhelm. which one specifically are you going to use?

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Sat 29 Mar, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A lot of kegelhelms have wide cheek guards with scallops for the eyes and mouth. They need to cover enough of the face so that they have Homer's "hollow-eyed" appearance and that the wearer's face is unrecognisable. Otherwise Patrokolos couldn't have been mistaken for Achilles. The kegelhelms from Cyprus have an integrated crest holder rather than a separate one that is riveted on like the Greek ones.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

Posts: 591

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Dan,
I usually just browse pics of custom armour,swords,etc...but this made me stop and say "WOW"...I know that you are very proud of the work on these pieces. Can"t wait to see the rest.

Congratulations to you as the new owner and to Jeff Hildebrandt for such masterful work.

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Fri 19 Sep, 2014 2:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The write-up for the making of this armour is in the latest edition of Ancient Warfare magazine (VIII.4)
http://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/pw/ancie...est-issue/

It gves me a little money to start a commission for the helmet.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Apologies for the necro but I thought some might be interested in an update. This armour has been displayed on an uncovered cabinet since I received it from Jeff six years ago. He kindly applied a coating of Renaissance Wax on it for me before shipping. It gets dusted maybe twice a year at most and has never been polished. The metal has remained just as bright and shiny as when it was first unpacked. I can't say this about any of my other bronze items. So I want to give a huge thanks to the makers of Renaissance Wax. It definitely works and is well worth the money.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Ryan Hobbs




Location: Middle GA
Joined: 19 Jun 2016
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu 26 Mar, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for bringing this topic back up, I missed it the first time! I've been looking at Bronze Age equipment more lately, so its awesome to see people making reconstructions of this level. Beautiful piece of armor!
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 12:11
View user's profile Send private message
Edward Rees




Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 02 Dec 2010

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2020 3:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,

Did you ever commission the helmet?

The church is close but the roads are icy; the tavern is far, I will walk carefully.
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2020 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Rees wrote:
Dan,

Did you ever commission the helmet?

Jeff has been pretty busy. I told him that if he ever had an opening, I'd be interested

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2020 12:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you have any images of you wearing it? I'd like to see how it looks on a person.
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Kallander wrote:
Do you have any images of you wearing it? I'd like to see how it looks on a person.

The misses took some photos when I first received it but I can't find them atm.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Parry




Location: UK
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Reading list: 39 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr, 2020 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Dan

That is a lovely piece of armour. Bronze age Aegean history has always been my favourite since school, probably as a result of being drilled in Attic and Homeric Greek daily from the age of 10 through rainy British afternoons ! Still remember my first trip to Mycenae 35 years ago and seeing the lion gates. Magical.

My question is how much do you use archeological finds vs using Homer as a literal source in deciding style and construction of armour ? I.e. you mention above it needing to be a certain type of helmet which achieves the 'hollow eyed' description in the Illiad.

To what extent do you feel the helmet must have been so because of the description in Homer, vs the long history of oral poetry of the Epic Cycle poems and Homer meaning that the dramatic requirement for Patroklos not to be recognised so that Achilles then could go into his rage of revenge, his aristeia, meant that it had to be described in a way which meant he was unrecognisable ? In the way that Shakespearean or operatic characters are sometimes 'in disguise' and have to be so for the plot to work out. Do you see a Homeric literal style of armour vs an archeological one or a blend ?

I am fascinated about the historical bona fides of the Illiad. I always remember being taken at school to a lecture at Oxford ,before I was a student there, on the relative antiquity of the Greek language in the Illiad, from passages which were thought to be predominantly Bronze Age Greek derivations, to later Ionic Greek inserts/adaptations and later still. Plus the usual discussion about how the Odyssey is a classic fantasy fiction construction. whereas the Illiad is a strange mix of dramatic flow vs very prosaic and boring (from a dramatic point of view) sections such the cataloque of ships (which I find the most interesting part from a historical perspective) Interested in your take on this and how it shapes your view on reconstrcutions.

Daniel
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Thu 02 Apr, 2020 2:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The armour, shields, and helmets described in the Iliad have been found in the archaeological record and date to the end of the Bronze Age. I translated the relevant passages using a literal interpretation rather than the literary ones we get in most texts; it is all in my book. These threads should have some of the info you need but the pics were messed up when the forum migrated to Tapatalk

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bronze_age_center/agamemnon-cuirass-t518.html
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bronze_age_center/agamemnon-39-s-helmet-t581.html#p18266

The Iliad makes more sense if the chronology is adjusted to eliminate the fabricated Dark Age. The Trojan War occurred in the 10th century BC.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Parry




Location: UK
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Reading list: 39 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does that make your date for the Troy of the Trojan war as Troy VIIA prior to the (supposed) period of abandonment as a city from 950 BC ? Does that mean you do not think the Greek states involved were Mycenaean or do you think the Bronze Age collapse and abandonment of many of the cities mentioned in the Illiad is not correct or dated incorrectly ? Is that what you are saying re the 'fabricated dark age' ? Interested as it's a much debated area and a fascinating one.

I guess my question was slightly different - not just whether arms and armour of that type could have or did exist then, but how the descriptions of them may have altered over time to enhance the poetic narrative in the way orally transmitted poetry can be changed over time and the Illiad story predates Homer. So there could have been a hollowed eyed helm in the period of the Trojan war (whenever that was and if it happened) but that the description may have developed separate to that fact and purely because of literary function. I guess it comes down to how close the Illiad is in form to the original composition and whether you think it reflects actual events or not and to what degree. I am inclined to think it does in a core way, perhaps not dissimilar to the various Arthurian references in 'histories' reflect some successful resistance to the Saxons in the late 5th/early6th centuries by a British leader

I read your book.
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When the chronology is revised, Troy VIIA dates to the 10th century. Korfmann was constantly trying to revise down the dating for Hissarlik but kept knocking his head against the chronology issues.

There was no Bronze Age collapse either. If we get rid of the fictional "Dark Age" we start to see a gradual and orderly transition into the Archaic Period.

Get a hold of Centuries of Darkness. It does the best job outlining all the problems with the chronology we've been using. The authors' proposed solution may not be the correct one but there is no doubt the the current chronology is wrong.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Parry wrote:
So there could have been a hollowed eyed helm in the period of the Trojan war (whenever that was and if it happened.

The Greeks thought that the Trojan war occurred at the end of the Bronze Age. Troy VIIa dates to the end of the Bronze Age. We have extant hollow-eyed helmets dating to the end of the Bronze Age - kegelhelms.





All of them had crests and some had horns just like the ones described by Homer.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books


Last edited by Dan Howard on Sat 04 Apr, 2020 3:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,427

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Based on the extant examples and Homer's description, this is what we think Agamemon's helmet looked like. The sketch was made by Todd.


Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Parry




Location: UK
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Reading list: 39 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan

I guess putting it in another way is it not possible that a bulk of the oral composition of the Illiad took place in the late Bronze Age and subsequently, and so the poets at that time (or times) then included (along with earlier items from the history and gradual oral development of the poem - isn't the archaeological example of the boars tusk helmet similar to the one in Book X thought to be 16th century BC ? ) pieces that they understood, as they were pieces from their own period or closer to it and they did not know exactly what earlier armour looked like (and maybe didn't care as it was a literary composition for them not a history).

So on the one hand it could be that the armour from the Illiad can mostly be found in the archaeological record of the late bronze age (but that also depends a bit on your interpretation of what exactly the text is describing in the absence of pictures - your point about your more literal translation) because that was the period of the Trojan war and the Illiad records it reasonably accurately. But also it could be that the armour of the Illiad doesn't represent the armour of the original event (assuming it was a real event) but represents the armour of the period of the major part of the oral composition ? So proving the types existed in the late Bronze Age doesn't prove the date or existence of the Trojan war but only the date and existence of some of the poets (some of them in a long line down to Homer). Certainly I think many linguists believe the Illiad shows a mix of predominantly Ionic Greek from a period of a few centuries at least (though again when those centuries were is debatable).

I recall a lecture with an interesting point relevant to this which was that the variety of Greek which we see as Homeric was indeed derived from various forms of Ionic and Aeolic dialects of greatly varying antiquity but also you needed to consider the constraints of the Dactylic Hexameter scansion of the Homeric works. These could cause you, over time, to adapt text to the restrictive form (it isn't a form of Greek that appears elsewhere and is different to other examples surviving of the Epic Cycle) and that changes (possibly major changes) may have been made to the text to adapt to that Homeric style, which meant deviations from whatever the original text had been and we should be careful for that reason also in assuming that the descriptions in the Illiad were the same as earlier versions (whether or not those earlier descriptions related themselves to real items or events).

I guess what I am saying is whether there is a difference in reconstructing the armour and weapons of the Illiad versus reconstructing those of the Trojan War, and whether the Illiad contains an accurate record of the originals (to the degree the original event actually happened) or it contains a hotch potch of original references and newer descriptions passed down along with more later ones, and then contemporary ones depending on the era of the poet in question. Goes back to my point about how accurate and historical do you think the Illiad is given the passage of time and oral tradition of transmittal until written forms emerged.

I think the proof would be in statistics - if you can prove that the vast majority of arms and armour in the Illiad can be dated to one period, explain the outliers, provide linguistic evidence or arguments that those passages are arguably consistent in period and towards the beginning of the development of the Illiad, and can persuade people that your interpretation of the meaning of the text justifies that attribution, and back it up with any other historical cross references (I guess you don't think the often quoted Hittite records have relevance because they are too early? Agree with you if that's the case ) then you are there. And maybe you are. I am genuinely fascinated by this period and all views and think it's a great argument to try and prove.

In the back of my mind, however are the many European paintings, before the era of 'proper' interest in archaeology, depicting classical scenes where the depictions of Roman and Greek figures' costumes and armour are a mix of fantasy and their own period. Because they didn't know and didn't care. Likewise a good indication of original classical heads on rapiers is that the helmets should be 'bad', i.e. not accurate, as that was the style then, as they had little accurate data to work from.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Agamemnon's cuirass
Page 4 of 5 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum