Posts: 193
Sat 30 Nov, 2019 11:06 pm
Quote: |
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the "soft" panzar" and the "good" panzar do not have to be made in the exact same way. The text is ambigious enough that the soft panzar could be the våpentrøye that the Hirdskråa requires to be worn under mail/a panzer while the good panzar relates to the ordinary panzar in the Hirdskråa that is the equivalent of mail. What the strengthened våpentrøye is might be more relevant to your argument. It's possible that it was a thicker padded jack that provided more protection than under armour padding but less than a layered jack. |
But it is what the author of konungsskuggsjá says. I am fluent in old Norse:
Quote: |
góðan panzara, görvan með sama hætti sem áðr var sagt |
That literally means made in the same manner as described before i.e. that the outer and inner garments are made in the same manner except the outer one has no sleeves. So they are either both layered jacks or both padded jacks or both hybrid jacks (as described by Maximin de Treves). Take your pick.
I am having a bit of trouble with old Maximin. He is cited in a few books out there including Osplrey Men at Arms 144 so he seems to be legit. Here is some more but this is from the from the ordinances of Louis XI of France (1461-1483) and it basically says the same things:
Quote: |
And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."
|
I am not fluent in medieval French so I'm afraid tracing these to the primary sources will be a problem for me.
I think the conclusion here is that for the discerning medieval armour shopper there was no layered jack OR padded jack, it was not a binary choice. There were multiple variants of pure layered jacks that gave different protection levels, there were also pure padded jacks (hard to deny since the Lübeck examples actually survive) and a hybrid layered/padded jack (which I always suspected but could not confirm). On top of that some of the layered, padded, hybrid jacks were standalone armour but some were lighter and needed to be used with mail or plate but you could also wear plate with no padding underneath.
This has been a very illuminating discussion.
Posts: 322 Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Sun 01 Dec, 2019 3:20 am
Quote: |
I am having a bit of trouble with old Maximin. He is cited in a few books out there including Osplrey Men at Arms 144 so he seems to be legit. |
St Maximin de Treves is actually the place where the ordnance was issued. I believe it is an abbey outside Trier (Treves), but i could be mistaken.
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:05 am
As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. :D How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack.
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:37 am
Kristjan Runarsson wrote: |
Luka Borscak wrote: | As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. :D How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack. |
We covered that In a previous post, so take your pick:
A jack of 30 layers of linen can stand alone.
A jack of 25 layers and a leather shell can also stand alone.
A jack of 10 or more layers should have a maille shirt with it.
A jack that is several layers of canvas stuffed with raw wool, grass, horse hair or what ever they would've had and used.
And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."
As for expectations, a 30 layer jack will be more expensive than you think. |
Thanks! But how to make sleeves equally strong but that you can flex your arms?
Posts: 81 Location: Australia
Sun 01 Dec, 2019 9:44 am
Luka Borscak wrote: |
As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. :D How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack. |
As mentioned at the start of the thread, I'd recommend John Howard's "doublet of fence" over the Louis XI jack, as we know that the transcription is accurate:
Quote: |
for every quarter 18 folds thick of white fustian, and 4 folds of linen cloth, and a fold of black fustian to put without, and for every back quarter 16 folds of white fustian, and 4 of linen cloth, and one of black for the covering; and for the sleeves 1 fold of black fustian, and 6 of white, and 2 of linen cloth |
With that said, I've just tracked down the original manuscript that Louis XI's ordonnance came from and am in the process of trying to get a copy of the page (the MS hasn't been digitised). Hopefully I'll have it some time early next year.[/quote]
Posts: 1,523 Location: Sydney, Australia
Thu 05 Dec, 2019 2:59 am
Also we have the tests by michael edelson, whatever value they have
Posts: 484
Thu 05 Dec, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 1,523 Location: Sydney, Australia
Sat 07 Dec, 2019 4:29 am
the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though.
Posts: 484
Sat 07 Dec, 2019 6:18 am
Agreed. I was a bit surprised that 28 layers of linen would stop a two-handed spear thrust.
Posts: 322 Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Sat 07 Dec, 2019 6:40 am
Quote: |
the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. |
I'm not sure I'd agree they are worth nothing. One of the problems we have is testing the effectiveness of armour against heavy bows at common battlefield distances. It is easier to get a consistent result at short ranges, like the 30 ft in this example. I've seen the suggestion in other tests that a weak bow at a short distance can stand proxy for a stronger bow at longer ranges, because we actually know a lot about the fall of of arrow velocity and impact energy with distance. Ok, the experiment isn't rigorous enough or well documented enough to stand on its own, but it is perhaps indicative that these armours would have had an effect against lower energy arrows, either at a distance or of lighter pattern or both. But agreed we would need better designed experiments to quantify this.
Posts: 1,523 Location: Sydney, Australia
Sat 07 Dec, 2019 9:22 pm
Michael Long wrote: |
William P wrote: |
the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though. |
The tests are useful by analogy. For instance they prove the linen is better against bodkins than broadheads, which should hold true for more powerful bows as well.
This may have been obvious from the start, but arrow performance is not always so intuitive. We would expect a paradozing arrow to penetrate less well, but paradoxing actually seems to help. |
weve kind of known for a while that needle like points dont fare well at piercing layers of heavy cloth without some ability to slice
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Fri 13 Mar, 2020 7:59 am
Posts: 1,220 Location: Cork, Ireland
Sat 14 Mar, 2020 2:05 am
Best of luck Luka. Make sure to update us on your progress.
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Sun 15 Mar, 2020 5:57 am
Stephen Curtin wrote: |
Best of luck Luka. Make sure to update us on your progress. |
Thanks! Now I need to sew shoulders together and add lacing or buckles in the front...
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Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:13 am
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