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William P
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 Posted: Tue 03 Mar, 2020 5:05 am Post subject: wearing the dagger in armour (13th century) |
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the question is simple, what is the general consensus on how knights and other men of war wore their daggers and also belts
was the dagger worn from the sword belt directly or, did it hang from the 'normal' belt much like one would wear in civilian life and have the sword belt fasten over the hanging thongings ( and this belt would also be ACTAULLY responsible for helping cinch the mail at the waist (sword belts seem a tad.. droopy, to do that..)
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Tue 03 Mar, 2020 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi William,
As best as I can tell, it would have hung on the sword belt. If you look at manuscripts that show illustrations of men using daggers, like the Maciejowski Bible or Codex Manesse, you do not see men wearing daggers in civilian contexts. Some re-enactors like to wear belts in a civilian context with pouches hanging off and daggers or knives hanging, but this probably wouldn't be correct unless you're specifically portraying a character on pilgrimage or otherwise travelling.
Please bear in mind I'm not saying they were never worn in civilian contexts; I'm just saying it was probably rare. Therefore, I would thinking wearing them on a sword belt would be the norm.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Wed 04 Mar, 2020 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm finding it difficult to find images of 13th century people in armour wearing daggers. If you do an image search through http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ you'll struggle to find any, though there are score of two-belt effigies. This may suggest that the dagger was not a standard part of the war gear of a knight at this time.
Anthony Clipsom
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Ed W.
Location: New Zealand Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed 04 Mar, 2020 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: |
As best as I can tell, it would have hung on the sword belt. If you look at manuscripts that show illustrations of men using daggers, like the Maciejowski Bible or Codex Manesse, you do not see men wearing daggers in civilian contexts. Some re-enactors like to wear belts in a civilian context with pouches hanging off and daggers or knives hanging, but this probably wouldn't be correct unless you're specifically portraying a character on pilgrimage or otherwise travelling.
Please bear in mind I'm not saying they were never worn in civilian contexts; I'm just saying it was probably rare. Therefore, I would thinking wearing them on a sword belt would be the norm. |
This is something that has puzzled me for a while as well. In the Mac Bible there are plenty of images of knights waving daggers about in combat, but I haven't been able to find a single image of how they're worn/carried in a military context either.
I'd love for someone to prove me wrong and find an image in the Mac Bible of a dagger being worn.
Ed.
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Lloyd Winter
Location: Los Angeles Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Wed 04 Mar, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve never been able to find any pics in the Morgan Bible of people actually wearing daggers. I’ve found one 13th century picture from another manuscript in the Morgan (dated 1260-1270) that shows 2 men, both wearing basilards
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4718/12489/
Why then the worlds mine oyster
Which I with sword will open.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Wed 04 Mar, 2020 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Lloyd Winter wrote: | | I’ve never been able to find any pics in the Morgan Bible of people actually wearing daggers. I’ve found one 13th century picture from another manuscript in the Morgan (dated 1260-1270) that shows 2 men, both wearing basilards |
There is also this, from the Abingdon apocalypse
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4075/12333/
Two rondel daggers suspended by hangers from the belt. Again, though, these men are only wearing a single belt.
Anthony Clipsom
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This is a standard topic