Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > What to expect of a 30 layers jack? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3 
Author Message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 152

PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov, 2019 11:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the "soft" panzar" and the "good" panzar do not have to be made in the exact same way. The text is ambigious enough that the soft panzar could be the våpentrøye that the Hirdskråa requires to be worn under mail/a panzer while the good panzar relates to the ordinary panzar in the Hirdskråa that is the equivalent of mail. What the strengthened våpentrøye is might be more relevant to your argument. It's possible that it was a thicker padded jack that provided more protection than under armour padding but less than a layered jack.


But it is what the author of konungsskuggsjá says. I am fluent in old Norse:

Quote:
góðan panzara, görvan með sama hætti sem áðr var sagt


That literally means made in the same manner as described before i.e. that the outer and inner garments are made in the same manner except the outer one has no sleeves. So they are either both layered jacks or both padded jacks or both hybrid jacks (as described by Maximin de Treves). Take your pick.

I am having a bit of trouble with old Maximin. He is cited in a few books out there including Osplrey Men at Arms 144 so he seems to be legit. Here is some more but this is from the from the ordinances of Louis XI of France (1461-1483) and it basically says the same things:

Quote:
And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."


I am not fluent in medieval French so I'm afraid tracing these to the primary sources will be a problem for me.

I think the conclusion here is that for the discerning medieval armour shopper there was no layered jack OR padded jack, it was not a binary choice. There were multiple variants of pure layered jacks that gave different protection levels, there were also pure padded jacks (hard to deny since the Lübeck examples actually survive) and a hybrid layered/padded jack (which I always suspected but could not confirm). On top of that some of the layered, padded, hybrid jacks were standalone armour but some were lighter and needed to be used with mail or plate but you could also wear plate with no padding underneath.

This has been a very illuminating discussion.
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 3:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I am having a bit of trouble with old Maximin. He is cited in a few books out there including Osplrey Men at Arms 144 so he seems to be legit.


St Maximin de Treves is actually the place where the ordnance was issued. I believe it is an abbey outside Trier (Treves), but i could be mistaken.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 152

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 3:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anthony Clipsom wrote:
Quote:
I am having a bit of trouble with old Maximin. He is cited in a few books out there including Osplrey Men at Arms 144 so he seems to be legit.


St Maximin de Treves is actually the place where the ordnance was issued. I believe it is an abbey outside Trier (Treves), but i could be mistaken.


No that sounds right, there is a St. Maximin's Abbey in Trier and the Roman name of Trier is Colonia Augusta Treverorum. Funny though, I was imagining some some Burgundian country squire ... Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,261

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. Big Grin How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack.
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Long





Joined: 10 Apr 2018

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kristjan Runarsson wrote:

indifferently: without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic.



The archaic meaning of indifferent is along the lines of 'mediocre'.
View user's profile Send private message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 152

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. Big Grin How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack.

We covered that In a previous post, so take your pick:

A jack of 30 layers of linen can stand alone.
A jack of 25 layers and a leather shell can also stand alone.
A jack of 10 or more layers should have a maille shirt with it.
A jack that is several layers of canvas stuffed with raw wool, grass, horse hair or what ever they would've had and used.

And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."

As for expectations, a 30 layer jack will be more expensive than you think.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,261

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kristjan Runarsson wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. Big Grin How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack.

We covered that In a previous post, so take your pick:

A jack of 30 layers of linen can stand alone.
A jack of 25 layers and a leather shell can also stand alone.
A jack of 10 or more layers should have a maille shirt with it.
A jack that is several layers of canvas stuffed with raw wool, grass, horse hair or what ever they would've had and used.

And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."

As for expectations, a 30 layer jack will be more expensive than you think.


Thanks! But how to make sleeves equally strong but that you can flex your arms?
View user's profile Send private message
Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 152

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Thanks! But how to make sleeves equally strong but that you can flex your arms?


That depends on the period and culture, what period and country are you aiming for? Quite frankly I have not given it much thought. However, I have seen people solve this problem of arm movement in really thick layered jacks in all kinds of way most of which are cheating, like using 2-3 layers of wool blanket inside the layered jack instead of 30 layers of linen/cotton. I saw one guy who actually made the sleeve thinner at the inside of the elbow and under the armpits but I have never seen that on anything in artwork or a surviving garment. One method that appeals to me is this 14th century idea:



Notice how the sleeve is in two parts and it is pre-bent at an angle. Also, there was often a sort of bulge, or bag, at the bottom of the sleeve where the two halves of the sleeve are sewn together for your elbow to fit into when your arm was sharply bent towards your body. The same would be done for the shoulder joints, you would pre-bend the arms a bit outward. I have not tested this idea with a 30 layer jack.

Mind you earlier layered jacks (12th-13th century) were not as complex pieces of tailoring as this. A good place to look at fabric armour of that period is the Morgan bible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bible



Notice the two guys at each end of the image and how the torso part of the jack at the shoulder seems a bit beefyer than on the sleeve side. This is a much less sophisticated piece of tailoring, basically just a couple of tapering arm tubes sewn to a torso tube like a viking age tunic. It may be that the sleeves on early jacks were thinner, i.e. had fewer layers than the torso part of the jack but I'm just guessing here.
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Dean




Location: Australia
Joined: 16 Feb 2019

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. Big Grin How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack.


As mentioned at the start of the thread, I'd recommend John Howard's "doublet of fence" over the Louis XI jack, as we know that the transcription is accurate:

Quote:
for every quarter 18 folds thick of white fustian, and 4 folds of linen cloth, and a fold of black fustian to put without, and for every back quarter 16 folds of white fustian, and 4 of linen cloth, and one of black for the covering; and for the sleeves 1 fold of black fustian, and 6 of white, and 2 of linen cloth


With that said, I've just tracked down the original manuscript that Louis XI's ordonnance came from and am in the process of trying to get a copy of the page (the MS hasn't been digitised). Hopefully I'll have it some time early next year.[/quote]
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,462

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also we have the tests by michael edelson, whatever value they have
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 379

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's 28 layers on linen being tested: https://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/the-making-of-a-medieval-gambeson/
Leonard Parker
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,462

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Here's 28 layers on linen being tested: https://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/the-making-of-a-medieval-gambeson/


the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 379

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 6:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed. I was a bit surprised that 28 layers of linen would stop a two-handed spear thrust.
Leonard Parker
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards.


I'm not sure I'd agree they are worth nothing. One of the problems we have is testing the effectiveness of armour against heavy bows at common battlefield distances. It is easier to get a consistent result at short ranges, like the 30 ft in this example. I've seen the suggestion in other tests that a weak bow at a short distance can stand proxy for a stronger bow at longer ranges, because we actually know a lot about the fall of of arrow velocity and impact energy with distance. Ok, the experiment isn't rigorous enough or well documented enough to stand on its own, but it is perhaps indicative that these armours would have had an effect against lower energy arrows, either at a distance or of lighter pattern or both. But agreed we would need better designed experiments to quantify this.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Long





Joined: 10 Apr 2018

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Len Parker wrote:
Here's 28 layers on linen being tested: https://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/the-making-of-a-medieval-gambeson/


the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though.


The tests are useful by analogy. For instance they prove the linen is better against bodkins than broadheads, which should hold true for more powerful bows as well.

This may have been obvious from the start, but arrow performance is not always so intuitive. We would expect a paradozing arrow to penetrate less well, but paradoxing actually seems to help.
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,462

PostPosted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Long wrote:
William P wrote:
Len Parker wrote:
Here's 28 layers on linen being tested: https://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/the-making-of-a-medieval-gambeson/


the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though.


The tests are useful by analogy. For instance they prove the linen is better against bodkins than broadheads, which should hold true for more powerful bows as well.

This may have been obvious from the start, but arrow performance is not always so intuitive. We would expect a paradozing arrow to penetrate less well, but paradoxing actually seems to help.


weve kind of known for a while that needle like points dont fare well at piercing layers of heavy cloth without some ability to slice
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > What to expect of a 30 layers jack?
Page 3 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum