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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jun, 2019 5:41 am    Post subject: Please help me identify bayonet         Reply with quote

I have a Bayonet that my dad brought with his first week wages in 1931 from an antique shop in central London. The Bayonet is engraved in I think french and is dated 1842 - 65. I think it may have belonged to a captain of some sorts I would like some help to identify this Bayonet and translate the script. Iím not looking to sell it just some information at this stage.

Iím having problems uploading the photo so I would happy to email a photo to whom ever could help me.
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jun, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does it look vaguely like either of these two bayonets? Top or bottom? The top is an M1874 Gras bayonet and the bottom an M1842 bayonet. Both can have script written along the spine of the blade.

I ask, because these are the two of the most common French bayonets that you see, along with the M 1866 Chassepot Bayonet, which looks similar to the bottom one. Different exact models, manufacturers, specifications, etc.. can increase or decrease value.. but they are not particularly rare/valuable in most forms. That being said, we absolutely cannot say anything without photos! Perhaps messaging a moderator could help.

Cheers,
Hadrian



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e71c4418-ba49-4200-b088-2c89dadb22bb.jpg


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Last edited by Hadrian Coffin on Tue 02 Jul, 2019 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jun, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes it looks like the bottom one,

I canít lower The pixels on the iPhone so Iím not able to up load a picture. I know someone who say he can do it for me on a window PC but that wonít be until tomorrow.

Thanks for you assistance thus far.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jun, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith Sutherland wrote:
Yes it looks like the bottom one,

I canít lower The pixels on the iPhone so Iím not able to up load a picture. I know someone who say he can do it for me on a window PC but that wonít be until tomorrow.

Thanks for you assistance thus far.


Iíve used an online picture reducer before on my iPad for posting here. Worked like a charm.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 28 Jun, 2019 2:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

finally done it - I would be grateful if anyone could translate.


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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jun, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been told that itís says: imperial manufactory of Chateraullaut (apparently a town in France) May 1865. He wasnít sure what the JB 16 le 1842 bit was though.

Are you able to assist further? Thanks in advance.
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Norman McCormick





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jun, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
Model 1842 bayonet manufactured in 1865., Hope this helps.
Regards,
Norman.
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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jun, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you , yes thatís great help I now have it full translated and know the model.

Out of curiosity what would you say is value is?
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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Sun 30 Jun, 2019 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The problem is that we would need more photos to gauge the condition. Does it have its scabbard? We need to be able to tell if it has been 'cleaned up' (which could be a negative), or if it is rusted (negative), or just has an even patina (positive). All of this greatly effects value.

Unfortunately these bayonets are not particularly rare/valuable. They were issued all over France and (now former) French territories, and copied and used in different countries including Egypt, Belgium, Argentina, and even the United States.. and were still in service in provincial contexts to the beginning of the great war. So there are literally hundreds of thousands of these bayonets around.

Typical ones in good condition tend to sell for around £150-200 on somewhere like eBay or generic auction house (about $175-225 USD for those based in USA) --but they can plummet if in any sort of poor condition. Ones in average condition tend to sell at/around £100. Lower end on the condition spectrum will sell at £50. If the piece is in absolutely exceptional or mint condition, with the original belt frog, etc.. you might be able to get £225-250 out of it at the maximum top end.

Best,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought it was a M1866 Chassepot Bayonet, is that the same thing?

Condition wise it looks pretty much like the one in the picture and yes it has the belt loop on the Scabbard.

I went in to Portsmouth a few years back and was told that I should insure it. I know know about that if itís only worth £50-£250. It isnít rusty bore has it been cleaned. It looks like it should after such a long time.
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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 4:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not quite the same, but very close, an M 1842 is the precursor to the M 1866. Yours just predates the M 1866, by being manufactured a year earlier.. and so is (infact) an M 1842. The cross guard looks different on an M 1842 vs an M 1866. So it is most definitely an M 1842.

Again, it is slightly hard/confusing to do without photos of the whole piece. Prices quoted stand.
Just because it isn't rusty doesn't mean it necessarily has been cleaned. Often if kept dry/oiled a sword/bayonet/knife will not rust.

Here are a couple of examples for sale (one is rusty, so if yours is not, yours is probably worth slightly more):
https://www.kingsshillingantiques.com/index.php/bayonets/other-nations/1202-an1649-model-1842-french-issue-yataghan-bayonet-in-scabbard

From an Auction (I do not recommend this auction house, but this price is correct):
https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/7262273-french-model-1842-yataghan-sword-bayonet

Here is one in good condition (not selling) at £225:
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/french-model-1842-yataghan-sword-bayonet-with-brass-grip-for/Blades/881818

Here is some further information:
http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/fren1842.htm

Best,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
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Keith Sutherland




Location: Essex
Joined: 26 Jun 2019

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you thatís very informative, Iím so pleased I found this site. I always promise I would find out as much information as I can about the Bayonet and you have been brilliant and I thank you for the insight.

Iím not looking to sell the Bayonet as I intend to pass it along to my son at some stage.

Thanks again.
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 10 Jul, 2019 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith that's a nice bit of kit, well done to your dad for getting it. I really like the French 19th century bayonets, and that one in particular is graceful and attractive. Maybe something to put on the wall over the fireplace, if it would suit your house?!


Keith Sutherland wrote:
Thank you thatís very informative, Iím so pleased I found this site. I always promise I would find out as much information as I can about the Bayonet and you have been brilliant and I thank you for the insight.

Iím not looking to sell the Bayonet as I intend to pass it along to my son at some stage.

Thanks again.

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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