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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Apr, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ali Zufer wrote:
Then again there's the accounts from the crusaders having the look like porcupines, so that implies the tendency of ditching shields even earlier perhaps

You have to consider the context. The incident involved a long march through hot, arid territory and the infantry was dumping anything that was slowing it down. Shields are always the first things to be dumped in those situations.

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Ali Zufer





Joined: 07 Sep 2018

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Apr, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Ali Zufer wrote:
Then again there's the accounts from the crusaders having the look like porcupines, so that implies the tendency of ditching shields even earlier perhaps

You have to consider the context. The incident involved a long march through hot, arid territory and the infantry was dumping anything that was slowing it down. Shields are always the first things to be dumped in those situations.


Not disputing that, but it goes to illustrate that shields aren't really as necessary, even with just mail, as some people think. If they really were needed they wouldn't have been dropped.

Correcting misconceptions with misconceptions is not the greatest idea and should seek to be avoided at all costs.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Apr, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Soldiers rarely think they will get killed. They will do anything to reduce their burden regardless of the danger involved unless an officer or NCO is keeping a close eye on them.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
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PostPosted: Sun 19 May, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Is it really either or? I thought the well-equipped late medieval knight took both a longsword and an arming sword to battle, often one strapped to the waist and one to the horse (Oakeshott, Sword in Hand).


Was this necessarily ALWAYS the case? I mean, not just considering dismounted knights, but occasions where you can find references for soldiers using a longsword in the sword-belt instead of an arming one: a Schilling's edition of 1470-80's shows a lot of swiss soldiers using longswords and even two handers in their belt; there is a picture of a frontline soldier (probably a pikeman) even killing an enemy with two hander thrusting attack. I guess you can also see longswords in 1504-6's Dolstein drawings and other references for early landknechts. This illuminature shows a longsword baldric attached to the belt.

https://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/13/14/02/10/54520710.jpg

Of course this isn't a source, but Ola had a video with historical norse equipment and his sword-belt actually carries a longsword: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGl_UXc9HIE
He latter described its use in another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_RunwNoKUw

I'm indeed inclined to believe arming swords were the most common side-weapon for a knight, but it does seen it wasn't necessarily a rule, just what was the most common. Btw, its possible to wear to swords in the sword-belt?

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Finally, when it comes to being 'socially superior', arming swords are easier to wear on a daily basis and less obtrusive. I don't know this for a fact, but I strongly suspect that a knight who showed up to a court social function with a big warsword strapped to his side would raise some eyebrows. Isn't why they were called warswords? They were reserved for war.


I guess that depends in the timespan, but Fernão Lopes' Chronicle says when squire Nuno de Álvares Pereira went for a coup in the court of Lisbon he was wearing minimum armor and a "espada-cinta", or arming sword. When the Queen complained about he and other soldier were wearing arms and armor he said its was just the type of equipment he wore in garrison duty. So it was at least convenient to wear a arming sword in garrison duty and more daily service.

T. Kew wrote:
Later authors like Paurñfeyndt indicate that the 'longsword' encompasses weapons from the 'schlactschwert' (aka zweihander) to the 'reitschwert' (riding sword).


I guess this is the more normative and informal definition we have in the subject. But just for confirming: a reitschwert is always a hand-and-a-half sword or bastard, right? Italian Wikipedia says so[/img]

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Henry O.





Joined: 18 Jun 2016

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PostPosted: Mon 20 May, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something I wanted to point out is that even if you're just referring to the length of the sword's handle and not the blade, a longer handle still has the potential to get in the way or catch on your arm/other things more often than a shorter handle would. I've usually just assumed that whether a knight had a sword handle long enough for one hand, two hands, or just one and a half hands mainly just came down to personal preference.

I suspect the growing popularity of two-handed swords and other two-handed weapons during the late middle ages did have to do with the increasing frequency/effectiveness of metal armor. Although while i can't comment much on earlier centuries, by the late 1400s and 1500s two-handed or long-handled swords definitely don't seem to have been uniquely associated with knights or nobility. The swiss pikemen in particular were known for carrying longswords throughout much of the 16th century. Additionally, a lot of depictions of the new types of light/medium cavalry showing up in the 15th century seem to show them carrying fairly longhandled swords. For instance the ones in Daniel's blog post: http://kriegsbuch.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-ap...n.html?m=1

In Feselen's Alesia painting some of the infantry are depicted fighting in the melee with two-handed swords but most of the fully-armored men at arms seem to be using short-handled swords: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Siege_of_Alesia.jpg

(As an aside I keep noticing new things about the "old vs new" themes in the painting. Today it's the HRE infantry in the background assaulting the rounded bastion while taking advantage of its blind spot)

Heavy cavalry carrying more than one melee weapon does seem to have been pretty common and it may have sometimes been both a one handed sword and a longsword. Montluc mentions that in the earlier parts of his career Gendarmes would each carry a broad, cutting falcion which was supposed to be able to cut into helmets and mail armor. Although by the second half of the 16th century at least, english writers tend to specifically identify men-at-arms with carrying a mace at their saddle in addition to their sword, rather than any particular kind of sword.
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