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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 340

PostPosted: Tue 08 Jan, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's a weapon in the sagas called a bryntroll. Someone here (near bottom) https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/apd.2016.4.issue-1/apd-2016-0006/apd-2016-0006.pdf thought it might be a double bladed-axe. The image I posted with the varangians does look very convincing to me.
Leonard Parker
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2019 2:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isn't a bryntroll just a kenning for a daneaxe?
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2019 6:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be, but maybe not.

"In Valla-Ljóts Saga (chapter 2), Ljot owns an inlaid bryntroll. He carries it when
he is in a good mood, as opposed to the sharp-horned axe he carries when in a
killing mood. Ljot uses the bryntroll to keep attackers at bay during an ambush,
and to deflect a spear thrown at him (chapter 8).
We can see that as opposed to the previously studied weapons, the bryntroll mostly cuts,
and impressively so. Besides, it seems to be used two-handed, since no shield is mentioned
in any of its appearances. And, given that the weapon is buried “up to the shaft” when
delivering a cut, the blade must be mounted so that the shaft is behind the blade. We
might therefore finally have something closer to a long-shafted axe – even more so that
in Egils Saga and Laxdśla Saga, other weapons like the höggspjót, the atgeirr, the kesja and
the krókspjót are mentioned, but never compared to the bryntroll.
However, the bryntroll is supposed to be contrasting with Ljóts sharp-horned axe. If we
suppose this axe to look like a Danish axe or a later large battle axe (Fig. 13), then the
bryntroll must have had quite a different look. We must think then of another pole-weapon
that is not a spear."

Leonard Parker
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Len Parker





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Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone recognize these axes here: https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5813&start=100 Like where and when?
Leonard Parker
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Jacek Gramlowski





Joined: 17 Jun 2015

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Does anyone recognize these axes here: https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5813&start=100 Like where and when?

Such axes were common in byzantine influenced world and they are called Tzikourion. Such axes are also common in caucasus region. Google for tzikourion and youll get to interesting examples
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much Jacek! You filled in the missing piece. So It looks like that image of the varangians is legit.
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Michael Long





Joined: 10 Apr 2018

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Staberg wrote:

One well know drawing of an event at the battle of Bouvines 1214 show a mailed mounted archer armed with a composite bow. Does this mean that the victorious French army employed mounted archery?


Of course, why not?

The composition of a 'lance' (a knight and his mounted retinue) frequently included bowmen, all across the Early and High Middle Ages. Even if the idea was to dismount most of the time, people who are accomplished at both shooting and riding will eventually try to do both at the same time.

Later treatises include instructions on how to employ a crossbow in a close range melee, even using it like a shield if you miss your shot.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,438

PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2019 5:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jacek Gramlowski wrote:
Len Parker wrote:
Does anyone recognize these axes here: https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5813&start=100 Like where and when?

Such axes were common in byzantine influenced world and they are called Tzikourion. Such axes are also common in caucasus region. Google for tzikourion and youll get to interesting examples


apologies but the byzantine term is much more general.

according to the taktika of Leo VI, a very early 10th century military treatise that borrowed heavily from the earlier strategikon of emperor maurice (7th century)

Quote:
(infantry should have)....Double bitted axes, one side shaped like a sword, the other like the point of a spear, to be carriesd in leather cases.
Other axes with one blade for cutting and the other rounded, still other double bladed axes shaped like the pelekus.


the pelekus is the pelekys which as we know is another word for labrys.

so thats one example. but it does indicate that the blade and spike combination was the most common of the three.

as for wierd as hell double bitted axes, quite a number have been found in bulgaria in the same period (10th century or so) https://www.pinterest.com.au/elgost25/byzantinebulgarian-axes-the-strange-ones/ ive compiled a few through my pinterest
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Jacek Gramlowski





Joined: 17 Jun 2015

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Jacek Gramlowski wrote:
Len Parker wrote:
Does anyone recognize these axes here: https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5813&start=100 Like where and when?

Such axes were common in byzantine influenced world and they are called Tzikourion. Such axes are also common in caucasus region. Google for tzikourion and youll get to interesting examples


apologies but the byzantine term is much more general.

according to the taktika of Leo VI, a very early 10th century military treatise that borrowed heavily from the earlier strategikon of emperor maurice (7th century)

Quote:
(infantry should have)....Double bitted axes, one side shaped like a sword, the other like the point of a spear, to be carriesd in leather cases.
Other axes with one blade for cutting and the other rounded, still other double bladed axes shaped like the pelekus.


the pelekus is the pelekys which as we know is another word for labrys.

so thats one example. but it does indicate that the blade and spike combination was the most common of the three.

as for wierd as hell double bitted axes, quite a number have been found in bulgaria in the same period (10th century or so) https://www.pinterest.com.au/elgost25/byzantinebulgarian-axes-the-strange-ones/ ive compiled a few through my pinterest


For pelekys name i dont want to argue because i am well aware of disambiguity of old greek language.They were found in crimea, balcan, ukraine and in caucasus region. There are many of theese axes in different shapes and simetrical double bladed is one of them. In bulgaria and balkan they were used up to 14. century at least. Btw. Bulgars had pretty much the same armament as Byzantines in 10 th century. Fot 10 th century they are described in written and pictorial form and there is big number of finds. That is the reason i call them common. There is a lot of other stuff which can be called exceptional special for that region and timescale.
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