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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

is it bad that i wanna nitpick the fact that the coat of plates is i think more 1340's? if im not mistaken really early coats of plates are more like the armoured surcoat

also the english spaulders are a bit BIG, and more seemingly reminiscent of mid century stuff?
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alan E wrote:
Nothing that made you cringe? Not the thrown axe biting through mail, nor the massed fire-arrows nor the mail hoods worn down during battle? Wink I guess it's a measure of how bad the representation is in most films, that these are not cringe-worthy Big Grin .

Precisely. It is a long maturation process for the movie industry to accurately depict medieval times...and a long way from Lawrence Olivier being shown being craned onto his horse. More recently the biker knight (or viking for that matter) prevailed, all clad in black leather (king Artur being the lowest point of that trend and hopefully the end of it), so seeing a production featuring actual gambisons, historically plausible armor and weaponry is indeed nothing to cringe about Happy (not to mention a couple of items from tod and possibly Albion).
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The gilt, scaly-looking armor already annoys me. Why couldn't they have stuck closer to the brass of Sir John de Northwode?
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/651/873/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Zach Gordon




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I mean, the fact we can have this conversation at all, is a HUGE improvement. Is it going to be 100% perfect, or completely accurate, no.. but they are closer than some re-enactors I have seen, and that is such a leap ahead of say "Braveheart".

I agree on the scaley armour :eyeroll:

So cool that Tod did daggers (and maybe Albion did a sword)!

Z
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 01 Sep, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alan E wrote:
Julien M wrote:
Funny, the bearded and clear blue eyed Chris Pine reminded me of O Toole for a second (Lion in Winter).
It looks interesting, and I did not see anything making me cringe from the historical accuracy standpoint in the trailer.
Looking forward to it. Wonder what they are going to do with W Wallace who pretty much stole the part of Scotland's liberator in Braveheart leaving little for the posterity of R De Bruce (weak, treacherous political animal vs the manly, true to his word Wallace). Hope this will set the record straight!
Nothing that made you cringe? Not the thrown axe biting through mail, nor the massed fire-arrows nor the mail hoods worn down during battle? Wink I guess it's a measure of how bad the representation is in most films, that these are not cringe-worthy Big Grin .


im actually going to argue that those incendiary arrows might now be as stupid as it may seem

its noted that these arrows are being used to ambush a camp

camps a full of canvas tents, usally waterproofed with oil or wax...

i.e its a VERY good way to set the entire camp on fire, or make every person drop EVERYTHING to make sure their tents dont go up in flames
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes incendiary arrows are a bit naff and in fact they appear to go out in the air, but they are visible at least (in a film). Arrows at dusk just disappear on reality and as a watcher you would see very little clue that massed archery was taking place.

The bottom line is that they are telling a story first and documentary around 24th on the list of things they are doing and to tell that story effectively in the restricted medium of TV (restricted compared to real life) compromises have to be made.

Heros need to be shinier
Baddies have to be blacker
Arrows have to be burnier
Swords have to be schwingier
and so on.

We will never have a true portrayal of the period in film because A. we will never agree what that would be, and B.most of the audience would not be interested or have any idea what was going on

Tod

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep, 2018 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well said Tod.
Éirinn go Brách
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Philip Dyer





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PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Yes incendiary arrows are a bit naff and in fact they appear to go out in the air, but they are visible at least (in a film). Arrows at dusk just disappear on reality and as a watcher you would see very little clue that massed archery was taking place.

The bottom line is that they are telling a story first and documentary around 24th on the list of things they are doing and to tell that story effectively in the restricted medium of TV (restricted compared to real life) compromises have to be made.

Heros need to be shinier
Baddies have to be blacker
Arrows have to be burnier
Swords have to be schwingier
and so on.

We will never have a true portrayal of the period in film because A. we will never agree what that would be, and B.most of the audience would not be interested or have any idea what was going on

Tod

You forgot that the English has to be newer to. If this film was 100 percent historically accurate, no one would be able to understand the dialogue because what we recognize as Modern English has only been around since the 1600s. Can you imagine a VIking Age movie and the expense and effort need to find translators to provide good subtitles for and actors to speak Old English? That would certainly be a nightmare!
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Graham Shearlaw





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PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The scale armour of the baddie is ugly.
But it's flashy, makes him stand out so i can see why it was done.
Compare that to ironclad's silly axe and woad viking baddie, it's a paragon of historical accuracy.
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Dashiell Harrison




Location: California
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Yes incendiary arrows are a bit naff and in fact they appear to go out in the air, but they are visible at least (in a film). Arrows at dusk just disappear on reality and as a watcher you would see very little clue that massed archery was taking place.

The bottom line is that they are telling a story first and documentary around 24th on the list of things they are doing and to tell that story effectively in the restricted medium of TV (restricted compared to real life) compromises have to be made.

Heros need to be shinier
Baddies have to be blacker
Arrows have to be burnier
Swords have to be schwingier
and so on.

We will never have a true portrayal of the period in film because A. we will never agree what that would be, and B.most of the audience would not be interested or have any idea what was going on

Tod


But grousing about movies being historically inaccurate is fun!

More to the point, movies are how most of the public learns its history, so I think wanting them to be as accurate as possible is somewhat reasonable, although I suppose there is nothing terribly wrong with the world if most people go through life thinking that medieval knights looked like modern bikers.

The Arn movie/show got a few things wrong, but it seems like the best depiction of medieval soldiers that I can think of in film, and that didn't detract from the story at all. I don't know why more medieval movies don't use reenactors as extras the way Civil War movies do in the states. You get superbly researched kit that way and it's probably about as affordable as getting random people and suiting them up in leather tunics.
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That looks promising, better than any historical genre film I've seen maybe ever. I think I see schiltrons, good sets, armor that looks plausible, correct helmets for the era.. people wearing helmets.

Love the armor at 1:27

Certainly better than Braveheart.

Sadly the charging cavalry doesn't seem to have lances though. Why does Hollywood hate lances so much? Seems like they could CGI them if it's a safety issue.

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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Yes incendiary arrows are a bit naff and in fact they appear to go out in the air, but they are visible at least (in a film).

We will never have a true portrayal of the period in film because A. we will never agree what that would be, and B.most of the audience would not be interested or have any idea what was going on

Tod


This has been debated for decades - as long as Hollywood has been around no doubt but certainly since the early days of the proto-internet, and I couldn't disagree more. I think it's an unfortunate cop out especially coming from those of us who do know better.

I think we can get MUCH closer to historically plausible, and well beyond the equivalent of say, Civil War setting with M-16s and Ak-47s and I do think people will appreciate it even though they don't know (or generally care about) history.

The bottom line to me is that when doing a historical genre piece you obviously have the choice of taking artistic license based on your own imagination or drawing inspiration from actual historical sources. The former in theory could be better but often boils down to lazy cliches and tropes that people instantly recognize and quickly get bored with. The night sky full of thousands of flaming arrows and bathtubs full of napalm being one obvious case.

A bigger problem is that when you just make things up they often don't fit together properly within your story, especially if the story itself is based on some kind of historical character or event.

The average movie producer, writer or director in other words is not Shakespeare and does not have the ability to make things up out of whole cloth that really flow or make sense more than real life, and you tend to notice the unevenness and inconsistencies even if you are consciously trying not to worry about it.

Historical sources particularly when it comes to things like weapons and armor however do make sense because they all fit together in real life.

To cite another typical cliche, when you see someone wearing mail or plate armor easily dispatched by a gentle draw cut across the stomach, you immediately wonder "why wear the bloody armor?" You can't help it, even if you aren't consciously aware of it. I really don't think historically accuracy really gets in the way of drama, to the contrary.


Not that you can't use artistic license in making your film, but starting with a good grounding in reality can help you tell where to hack or edit the story to make it more entertaining and where not to.



I think some films that did rely more on historically accurate elements were indeed successful. Kurosawa's Samurai films for example had in particular realistic fencing, also to some extent armor, arquebuses and other weapons. This did not cause them to suffer at the box office. His fights didn't last as long as some of the sillier ones in other films, but he put the drama before in the build up and after in the consequences. I think the overall effect was much more engaging for most audiences, knowledgeable or otherwise.

Saving Private Ryan, though it maybe wasn't up to the level of Akira Kurosawa, did benefit in some parts from the deep well of highly knowledgeable technical advisors like Stephen Ambrose who were involved. I would say in particular the initial scene of the landings (in all their horror) and the effort put into dressing a T-55 as a Tiger tank toward the end - the "look" of the Tiger tank actually played a role in the movie IMO, whether you know what it's supposed to look like or not.


By the way they did use incendiary crossbow bolts a lot in sieges they just look and behave very differently than as depicted in Hollywood cliches.







No doubt they did it with arrows too but it drastically shortens the range. And you have something to set on fire like a roof.

Jean

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jean,

I get it and it would be much better if we did pursue historical accuracy, but decades of the public thinking one thing is hard to overcome. and that is your audience, the fee paying public who want entertainment over education.

Secondly, your award winning big name director doesn't want lances (or whatever), so you don't have lances - simple. Its my way or the highway is a daily reality on film sets.

Tod

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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Back in late '97 I was working with Ron Maxwell, the fellow that did the classic American Civil War epic, 'Gettysburg'. We were in preproduction on an epic about Jeanne d'Arc, with a real desire to do something as historically accurate as we could on the $50 million budget we had. We got squashed by Sony, which preferred 'Le Mess(enger)'. It was a very bitter experience. If we had done what we planned, it would have set a new standard in film. He's still trying to get it done as a trilogy; the original script was really too long even by LOTR standards for one sitting, and breaking it up is much more feasible. No word on how it's coming, though, as he is really concentrated on 'Last Full Measure'.
jamesarlen.com
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Hi Jean,

I get it and it would be much better if we did pursue historical accuracy, but decades of the public thinking one thing is hard to overcome. and that is your audience, the fee paying public who want entertainment over education.

Secondly, your award winning big name director doesn't want lances (or whatever), so you don't have lances - simple. Its my way or the highway is a daily reality on film sets.

Tod


Tod,

I am "hip" - my sister works in the industry and has for many years so I have some idea what it's like. I am not under the illusion that a stunt coordinator or a technical advisor can overrule a director or producer. However directors and producers respond to public opinion, and when it comes to genre or historical films the interests of the broad public are sometimes influenced by the people already interested in the subject . We have seen some nudges in what I would call the "right" direction - this thread is based on a mostly positive reaction to the improved historical accuracy evident in the trailer for this new film.

We as the free public, also have the right to express our opinions on this, and collectively that can apply some pressure.

So I am just arguing that there is in fact nothing inherently contradictory between a (reasonably flexible) degree of historical accuracy in a genre film on the one hand, and good public entertainment on the other. In fact I believe the former can indeed improve the latter, and I believe the fee paying public enjoy historical elements especially as related to things like costumes, locations, martial arts and weaponry. And something is driving the sustained intense interest in that particular historical genre, I don't think it's the whims of Hollywood or game designers.

In fact one thing I notice is that there is a deeper basis in historical knowledge is starting to seep into the wider culture. Partly from forums like this and others, partly from Youtube and other Social Media.

For example this fellow seemed to have nailed pretty much every positive and negative element in that trailer. In fact I don't think I disagree with almost anything he said which is a bit shocking to me. I don't know who he is but I notice he has 125k views. I can remember a time when even the basics this guy is going over would have triggered a huge argument, but in his comment section most people seem to agree.

https://youtu.be/gUTMDWFh2fk

Maybe things are changing Wink.

On the other hand, I think Alatriste should have been a lot more famous than it was so who knows...

Jean

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Back in late '97 I was working with Ron Maxwell, the fellow that did the classic American Civil War epic, 'Gettysburg'. We were in preproduction on an epic about Jeanne d'Arc, with a real desire to do something as historically accurate as we could on the $50 million budget we had. We got squashed by Sony, which preferred 'Le Mess(enger)'. It was a very bitter experience. If we had done what we planned, it would have set a new standard in film. He's still trying to get it done as a trilogy; the original script was really too long even by LOTR standards for one sitting, and breaking it up is much more feasible. No word on how it's coming, though, as he is really concentrated on 'Last Full Measure'.


Maybe he can get a Netflix or Amazon contract now... that is one of the things that is changing, there are a lot more options these days...

J

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd like to see some skirmishers deploying weapons like this in the next medieval genre film i see:


System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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