[Travis Gorrie]

If someone could provide me with some definitive armor answers it would be greatly appreciated.

I have read many posts (on this forum and others) about what brigandine armor actually looks like, and there appears to be two conflicting descriptions.

The first group claim that brigandine armor is an evolution of the coat of plates. Except with a lot more and smaller overlapping metal plates (sounds like scale armor to me), which allows greater flexibility than the CoP. This group sites the Wisby armor from the book entitled Armour from the Battle of Wisby by Bengt Thordman.

The second group claim brigandine armor consists of non-overlapping metal plates sewn onto cloth. It is claimed that the non-overlapping plates are quieter and could be hidden under cloths. As a result brigandine is considered 'court' armor and could provide protection in civilian situations without offending the royal court. The only example that I can think of for this theory would be the armor the English soldiers wear in the Scotish village in Braveheart (soldiers that attack his wife).
Even though the Braveheart armor is not concealed for court use the metal plates are not overlapping and appear to be square metal plates sewn onto cloth.

Which group is correct? Or are they both.
-If group 1 is correct. What is the difference between Brigandine and Scale armor?
-If group 2 is correct. Is the Braveheart armor a good historically accurate example of Brigandine armor or is it Hollywood rubbish?
-If the Braveheart armor is not Brigandine and not Hollywood rubbish, then what is it?

Regards,
-Travis

[Alexi Goranov]

Hi Travis,

both groups have provided some valid points to what brigantine is. Here is a picture of a brigantine form the Met museum.

If I remember correctly, some authorities like Claude Blair do propose that the brigantine is an evolved coat of armor, and that does make sense since the construction is similar: metal plates secured under a cloth garment. I am aware of examples that have overlapping metal plates, and I also know examples where the plates are non overlapping. In both cases however the plates are sewn or rivetted to a cloth garment. usually the plats are not visible from the outside. The sice and shape of the scales varied.

I have a picture from the Higgins museum of the inside of a brigantine but my photo collections are at home.

In some aspects scale armour and brigantines are not so different, but they were used (were popular) during different times. Brigantine use picks up popularity at the end of 14th century and continues into the 16th century. Scale was used earlier, and I think it was restricted to Scandinavia and Russia, but I might be confusing it with lamellar armour. Scale and lamellar were used at the same time but were popular at somewhat different regions. That does not mean that they were never used on the same battlefield.

"Battle of wisby" is a great reference, Barave heart is not.

Here is a link to ChivalryBookshelf Go to catalogue and click on Battle of Wisby book (somewhere towards the bottom of the page). There are numerous scans of pages that show different kinds of armour including lamellar and brigantine. I hope you find this useful

I hope this helps.

[Travis Gorrie]

Alexi,

Thanks for the info, the link that you provided is perfect and very informative. I appreciate it.

So are you telling me that the Braveheart armor has no historical basis?

-Travis

[Alexi Goranov]

[Allan Senefelder]

Travis, that i'm aware of bridandine is made up of a large number of small plates( although at least based on funery effigies and other period art several large plates for the chest were often used in the later 14th and very early 15th century ) riveted to the inside of a fabric jacket the best using velvet. When the plates are sewn or quilted between two layers of fabric the resultant garmnet is refered to as a "jack" . Scale armour is a very old from of armour and alot of the surviving scales indicate that the scales were attached to each other and whatever backing there was using rings. The scales could also be sewn or riveted to a fabric/leather backing( the two examples i've seen up close were the Roman horse barding in the Higgins which was sewn and a scale jack that was part of and hussars armour in a small art musem in Baltimore which had the plates riveted on to a canvas base and was of 17th century date) . Scale seems to have gone out of fashion for the most part in Western Europe by the end of the 14th century(although it remained in use in the east into the early 18th century) with the use of brigandine waning twords the end or the 16th century. The "jack" seems to have come into use sometime in the 15th century and faded around the end of the 16th like brigandine. Some one else may be able to flesh this out better but I believe this is basically how it works.

[Travis Gorrie]

Allan,

Thanks for replying.

So if I am following you correctly. The main difference between scale and brigandine armor is the way in which the overlapping metal plates are attached to the underlying garment. With scale armor the small metal plates are attached with metal rings while a brigandine jack has the plates rivetted onto the garment, and then another layer of cloth placed over top.

Is it safe to say that a brigandine jack is the evolution of scale armor due to the advances in metal working (rivetting)?

Regards,
-Travis

[Gordon Clark]

By the way - production brigandines are hard to find, but I think these are (not perfect perhaps) but fairly accurate
White Rose : http://www.whiteroseapparel.co.uk/brigpage.htm

[Gordon Frye]

Travis, part of the problem here too is in trying to apply a strict definition of terms to items that have a lot of, well, overlap, for lack of a better word. At the same time we're dealing with an age in which strict definitions of terminology, or for that matter spelling, were pretty foreign ideas. So there is going to be a lot of controversy as to just what a person of the era is actually talking about when mentioning something, as well as controversy in our own age when discussing these sorts of things. Any given author may well be VERY specific in their own minds as to what they are talking about... but to the rest of the world, it's Greek, unless they include a pretty complete "definition of terms" (with illustrations!) in the process.

So just some fair warning that it's a murky business, and rife with mis-understandings, errors and obfuscations. Sort of like politics and international law.

Good luck with this though, glad you're digging into this!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Nathan Robinson]

You may find This Topic to be of some use, too.

[Allan Senefelder]

Travis generally speaking the direction of overlay is down. The plates in a brigandine coat are riveted inside the coat but the liner if any was present wasn't held in with those same rivets( the rivets would quickly pull throught the liner from the stresses of the plates flexing with the body as I understand it) . Brigandine plates overlap down in roughly verticle rows while scales overlap down but in a staggered fashion like bricks. Scale armours have the plates on the outside of the garment while brigandine plates are on the inside . I don't really know if brigandine developed from scale or coats of plates or not but brigandine construction is not particularly high tech. It is very time consuming but essentialy taking some iron and chopping it into smaller bits of iron and riveting them down is not tech intesive.

Those White Rose brigs are awfully nice looking!

[Travis Gorrie]

Nathan: That topic basically prompted this topic, because it contradicted what I understood on brigandine armor and as a result created more questions. I guess I enjoyed that topic so much I didn't want it to end.

Gordon Frye: I understand it is difficult to classify armor into nice neat categories. Even the site Gorden Clark (linked above) displays many different types of brigandine armor that vary in the number plates, plate size, and shape. I guess I was hoping / searching for something like Oakeshott's typology of medieval swords that explains the evolution and types of armor.

I do appreciate the input guys.

-Travis

[Travis Gorrie]

Allan,

Interesting .... so scale overlaps like bricks while brig is vertical.
Is a one particular style of overlapping plates better than the other?


PS. Yes those White Rose brigs are nice.

[Joe Fults]

[Alexi Goranov]

[Jeff Johnson]

[Jeff Johnson]

[Alexi Goranov]

[Jeff Johnson]

[Alexi Goranov]

[W. R. Reynolds]