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JG Elmslie
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Location: Scotland
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Dec, 2017 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oskar Gessler wrote:
Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
r


get your measurement data from real originals, not reproductions.
copying copies simply compounds the errors in them, adding further inaccuracy.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Dec, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
Oskar Gessler wrote:
Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
r


get your measurement data from real originals, not reproductions.
copying copies simply compounds the errors in them, adding further inaccuracy.


If I had originals to measure, I certainly would. I know that Peter Johnnson is a master at his craft and that a sword based upon his specifications would likely be a good approximation of at least a significant segment of extant pieces, and if it were a replica of a specific piece, that the measurements would be spot-on - well as much as possible given potential erosion and the ravages of time. I would be curious to see how much variance is found in surviving blades and whether any conclusions could be drawn based on region, timeframe or economics, either of the time or based on the apparent "quality" of the weapon.
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JG Elmslie
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Location: Scotland
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sun 24 Dec, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:


If I had originals to measure, I certainly would. I know that Peter Johnnson is a master at his craft and that a sword based upon his specifications would likely be a good approximation of at least a significant segment of extant pieces, and if it were a replica of a specific piece, that the measurements would be spot-on - well as much as possible given potential erosion and the ravages of time. I would be curious to see how much variance is found in surviving blades and whether any conclusions could be drawn based on region, timeframe or economics, either of the time or based on the apparent "quality" of the weapon.


Pretty much what I'm doing slowly, cross-referencing the extant ones I've been looking at and recorded.

What date, geographical area and social status are you thinking of for a repro?
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Oskar Gessler




Location: Germany
Joined: 29 Nov 2017

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Dec, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
Oskar Gessler wrote:
Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
r


get your measurement data from real originals, not reproductions.
copying copies simply compounds the errors in them, adding further inaccuracy.


Im not quite sure if this necessarily would make the product better in the end. The used steel is not the same. The hardness is usually unnknown but would be important to know. Its always just a reproduction.
And I think this question is important to ask oneself: Do I want something that feels like a certain Original, or do I just want a good sword?

I dont want an exact copy of the Knecht. But because of its good reputation I would use this sword to have something for orientation. I want a Kriegsmesser which is as good as the originals but not the exact copy of a particular piece.
It should be as stiff as the Knecht but generally I want the simple style of the single handed Messer on Cervenkas website(except for the curly birch scales on the handle which I want to make by myself).
This will be just my personal sword and I want it to be good.
Measured by its performance, not by its accuracy at being a copy. It will be an own creation for the most part.
Maybe it will be even better balanced and cut better than any original, who knows. ;-)

The only complaint I ever hear about cervenka swords is the lack of stiffness. And my first sword from him could indeed be a little stiffer. Not much but still. But beside that this man usually delivers great work and I believe his experiece will prevent him from cumulating mistakes.Especially when the entire sword is basically an own creation.
Therefore Im certain that if I get the stiffness right, (by orientating myself on the Knechts width and thickness and not going too much over its lenght) everything else will be too.
I also told him that he can change my requested diameters a little where he thinks it would be better.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Dec, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
Victor R. wrote:


If I had originals to measure, I certainly would. I know that Peter Johnnson is a master at his craft and that a sword based upon his specifications would likely be a good approximation of at least a significant segment of extant pieces, and if it were a replica of a specific piece, that the measurements would be spot-on - well as much as possible given potential erosion and the ravages of time. I would be curious to see how much variance is found in surviving blades and whether any conclusions could be drawn based on region, timeframe or economics, either of the time or based on the apparent "quality" of the weapon.


Pretty much what I'm doing slowly, cross-referencing the extant ones I've been looking at and recorded.

What date, geographical area and social status are you thinking of for a repro?


Not thinking of anything, in terms of another messer at least, right now - not in a position to commission anything beyond a seax, probably, and not sure when, or if, I'll ever be in a position to do anything of substance ever again. If I ever am fortunate enough to be able to do anything in the future, first thing would be a particular spatha of potential Frankish origin, along with a suite of complementary items (seax, Francisca, spear, shield with proper boss for era, other items around which a kit could be built). Next would be a TypXIV based on the Solingen example. Were I to ever do a messer, I might go for a suite again, with a kriegsmesser of relatively simple design, simple nagel, antler grips, as well as a grossemesser also of relatively simple and complementary design, rugger and by-knives. Ok, so maybe I'm thinking of something, but only at a high level...
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Tue 30 Jan, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oskar Gessler wrote:
Ian Hutchison wrote:
Oskar Gessler wrote:
Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

I ve ordered a Kriegsmesser from Vladimir Cervenka and Im trying to find as many information as I can
before things get serious next year when he starts working on it.
Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
Vladimir Cervenka is hardening a few Rockwell lower and I wanted a 120cm messer(although Im not 100% sure about that yet), so I guess making it thinner than the Knecht would definitely be a bad idea.
Now I would be curious how thick and wide this one is if its starting to become too springy at this point.
Cheers
Oskar


Hi Oskar, I will definitely check again when it gets here. I want to say it's like 5mm-2mm or so. The measurements I have for the knecht are 8mm-2mm


Thank you Ian!


Hi Oskar,

Yes, I just checked the Pavel Moc messer tapers from a shade under 5mm to 1.5-2mm.

Although much thinner and only slight shorter than my Nielo messer which tapes from ~7mm, the blade is stiffer and it handled water bottles with no problems. Still need to try against tatami.

BTW, big thank you to Armour Class who sharpened the sword for free and did an excellent job! I was warned there may be a slight secondary bevel, but I honestly can't find one.








'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Oskar Gessler




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Jan, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting.
So, its a true flatgrind? Because this is another point Im not sure about.
Flatgrinds are great. All my scandi blades have one. Easy to sharpen etc but not the strongest type of edge.
But if it works so long as the blade is thick enough...think I will ask VC to make it flat.

And cool that you have it back.
Cheers!


Last edited by Oskar Gessler on Mon 12 Feb, 2018 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Wed 31 Jan, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oskar Gessler wrote:
Interesting.
So, its a true flatgrind? Because this is another point Im not sure about.
Flatgrinds are great. All my scandi blades have one. Easy to sharpen etc but not the strongest type of edge.
But when it works so long as the blade is thick enough...think I will ask VC to make it flat.

And cool that you have it back.
Cheers!


As it came it was a flat grind but:
1. Wasn't very sharp in general.
2. A few stretches of several cm were not sharpened at all. In fact, you could still see the black marker which was being used as a guide.

This was resharpened by Armour Class in Scotland.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Feb, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Community service: datasheet of the original, documented by the Zornhau group. If it's been already posted in this thread, I missed it.

http://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-content/up.../ZEF-4.pdf
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Bodorics wrote:
Community service: datasheet of the original, documented by the Zornhau group. If it's been already posted in this thread, I missed it.

http://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-content/up.../ZEF-4.pdf


Very cool, thank you for sharing! I see the blade of the original was almost twice as thick at the guard compared with the reproduction! Indeed, it is thicker along almost the entire length except for the point.

Repro/Original:

Length: 1150mm/1082mm
Mass: 1300g/1020g
Blade width (depth/taper):
    Guard: 35mm/30mm
    1/3: 30mm/26mm
    2/3: 28mm/ 23mm
    20mm from point: 20mm/17mm


Blade thickness (spine/distal taper):
    Guard: 4.8mm/7.5mm
    1/3: 4.5mm/6mm
    2/3: 3mm/4mm
    20mm from point: 2mm/2mm



As you can see, the width, length, and mass of the reproduction are greater, but the distal taper is quite a bit less pronounced. Kind of disappointing to discover Wink . It looks like a close reproduction, but the measurements are quite different, and I'm sure it handled differently.

So far, the Albion Knecht and Nielo Messer are the only two which I've seen that have a more correct blade thickness. The Nielo has problems of its own though (wobbly blade + loose hilt construction).

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Starting thickness itself is not the problem, here's another one (again, from Zornhau. Those guys are awesome.) in similar style which has a relatively thin spine. The much lower overall weight, and much more further out PoB is a recurring theme though.

https://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/03/ZEF-3-MS-4.pdf
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Wed 14 Feb, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Bodorics wrote:
Starting thickness itself is not the problem, here's another one (again, from Zornhau. Those guys are awesome.) in similar style which has a relatively thin spine. The much lower overall weight, and much more further out PoB is a recurring theme though.

https://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/03/ZEF-3-MS-4.pdf


That's a wicked looking curve on that blade, love it! You're right, I should clarify that I meant in comparison to the swords that they are based on, rather than in general.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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