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Henry O.





Joined: 18 Jun 2016

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Out of curiosity were the jinetes armed with javelins or "javelins"? I know there tends to be a lot of confusion over what that word means in 16th-17th century english. Edit: by which i mean did they actually carry short, light javelins designed for throwing, either one or a handful, or did they just carry a long cavalry spear which was sometimes thrown?

Another question: in Taylor's Art of War in Italy he claims about the Spanish men at arms "their helmets and shields were often made of leather", citing one of Giovio's works.

https://archive.org/stream/artofwarinitaly100taylrich#page/64/mode/2up

Can anyone back up the use of leather helmets or know how to read 16th century italian?
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 142

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "De vita et rebus gestis Consalvi Ferdinadi Cordubae cognomento Magni" (AKA Fernando González de Córdoba, "el gran capitán") seems to be in Latin. I will try to find a copy and check it, as leather helmets are exceptional. I can only remember an iberian inventory entry about what perhaps was a tourney one, and decades earlier. Perhaps there was some confusion, as adargas were undoubtebly made in leather.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,252

PostPosted: Tue 05 Dec, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henry O. wrote:
Out of curiosity were the jinetes armed with javelins or "javelins"? I know there tends to be a lot of confusion over what that word means in 16th-17th century english. Edit: by which i mean did they actually carry short, light javelins designed for throwing, either one or a handful, or did they just carry a long cavalry spear which was sometimes thrown?


They're sometimes listed as lancegayes or archgayes in English and French sources, which might give another set of terms to search.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 142

PostPosted: Tue 05 Dec, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
They're sometimes listed as lancegayes or archgayes in English and French sources, which might give another set of terms to search.


Azagayas , probably a moorish kind and moorish name.

There are many other names of throwable spears in ancient Spanish, but some are too widely used (javalinas, dardos) and others seem very specific (gorguz or gurguz for naval warfare)
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Eirik R. F.




Location: Norway
Joined: 08 Nov 2015

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PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I understand it, soldiers from the Catalan Company carried two javelins and a short spear (ascona muntera).
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In 1385, after the defeat of Aljubarrota, a decree was made in Castilla listing the equipment required by wealth. The higher tier (more than 20.000 maravedis) should have weapons as a man at arms, or in Andalucía, equipment for a ginete. Sadly, it doesn't explain it.

As trowing weapons are also related to the topic, the three lower tiers, from 0-200-400-600 maravedís were required to have spear and "dardo" and, depending of the wealth, sling or shield. And the owners of 3000 to 20.000 maravedíes, armed as heavy infantry, should have one dart too.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 249

PostPosted: Tue 12 Dec, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Henry O. wrote:
Out of curiosity were the jinetes armed with javelins or "javelins"? I know there tends to be a lot of confusion over what that word means in 16th-17th century english. Edit: by which i mean did they actually carry short, light javelins designed for throwing, either one or a handful, or did they just carry a long cavalry spear which was sometimes thrown?


They're sometimes listed as lancegayes or archgayes in English and French sources, which might give another set of terms to search.


Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
Azagayas , probably a moorish kind and moorish name.

There are many other names of throwable spears in ancient Spanish, but some are too widely used (javalinas, dardos) and others seem very specific (gorguz or gurguz for naval warfare)


As Iagoba said, there are many names for throwable spear in Medieval Spain, azagaias (the way the Portuguese named them) being one. I recently bought Paulo Jorge Simões Agostinho's Vestidos para Matar: o armamento de guerra na cronística portuguesa de quatrocentos which dissecates the most relevant 15th-century Portuguese chronicles in the subject of weapon and armor. He identified 12 mentions of assengays, or azagaias, in those chronicles. The gorguz is mentioned 3 times, always as throwing weapons, but not enterily at sea: Agostinho says they were mentioned twice being used by french pirates and once in the hands of moslem warriors (pp. 184). He distinguishes the assengays from other weapons due to the fact that, while other spears were "christian weapons", the assengay was a moorish one (pp. 160). They were adopted by the Christians in Iberian Peninsula somewhere during the latter invasions of African Dynasties in Spain, but they were certainly being used by the Christians at the 14th century, as Froissart and other sources states.

Ian Heath supports the idea that the assengay had feathers, like a giant arrow; that is supported by the fact that french manuscripts describes them with a castilian soldier in the Siege of Lisbon of 1380's and at another instance, in the hands of a ottoman soldier (I can provide the picture from Froissart's Chronicles of the first but not the last one). But that doesn't mean the ginete only could throw the assengays: the "Lanza Gineta", a sort of lighter cavalry lance, could be used to thrust at the moorish fashion (striking with the arm held high or with both hands) AND be used to throw. According to 1385's Castillian Ordinance of Arms, all jinetes were expected to provide assengays and a lance. Portuguese "besteiros do Conto" were required to have 3 throwing spears (I believe they were assengays too), since they could be thrown at short distance when the crossbowmen couldn't shoot with the crossbow when enemy was too near.

One of the French Ordinances stipulate that Coustilliers were required to have assengays as well. According to George Gush's Renassaince Armies, Tudor's Yeomen of the Guard were also armed with assengays to use them on horseback. I find it weird that such information is seldom mentioned; perhaps the assengays didn't got much popularity in England and France, who knows ...

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)


Last edited by Pedro Paulo Gaião on Tue 12 Dec, 2017 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 249

PostPosted: Tue 12 Dec, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
In 1385, after the defeat of Aljubarrota, a decree was made in Castilla listing the equipment required by wealth. The higher tier (more than 20.000 maravedis) should have weapons as a man at arms, or in Andalucía, equipment for a ginete. Sadly, it doesn't explain it.


It was made after the defeat? That's interesting. I could swear I have posted an english translation of the the Castillian Ordinance of arms here, but since I didn't, have at you. "Estoc" meant a longsword in contemporary nomenclature, as you can see in portuguese "Crônica de Fernão Lopes" were the royal princes were very skilled at it.

I didn't knew the class of +20.000 maravedis was expected to equip themselves as jinetes in the frontier with Granada. Do you know any page in the internet or a book who covers this subject?


Since you read the original Ordinance, there was a specification in the type of the shield? Like an adarga for the poorer soldiers and a pavise for the richer?

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
As trowing weapons are also related to the topic, the three lower tiers, from 0-200-400-600 maravedís were required to have spear and "dardo" and, depending of the wealth, sling or shield. And the owners of 3000 to 20.000 maravedíes, armed as heavy infantry, should have one dart too.


That isn't mentioned in Heath's translation, he just puts two categories and the difference between the two is simply the addition of a shield, not mentioning the sling. He also just puts one category of meéle infantrymen, and there was no obligation to afford armor, as noted. "Dardos", or darts, were the classic throwing weapons: of shorter and lighter sort (there is a review of a dart in myArmoury). Agostinho says about them:
Quote:
O dardo era uma arma utilizada pela peonagem, como o demonstra a exigência feita por D. Fernando, em 1373, de que “os homẽes de pee de viinte anos acima aviam de teer funda e lança e dous dardos” (pp. 182)

My translation: The dart was a weapon used by the foot soldier, as it is shown in D. Fernando's demand in 1373 that "the footmen over 20 years old had to possess sling, spear and two darts".


Apparently, the minimum equipment in terms of weapons was this set of sling, spear and two darts. There were young levies at Aljubarrota (1385) of who were armed with slings, but they were all ordered to guard the baggage instead of actually fighting. Having D. Fernando's demand in mind (and knowing he fathered both João de Avis and Juan de Trastamara's wife), it's possible that such youngs were under 20 years old and had little experience at war or money to invest in weapons.



 Attachment: 70.4 KB
Castillian Ordinance of Arms (1385) [ Download ]

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Henry O.





Joined: 18 Jun 2016

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue 12 Dec, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Henry O. wrote:
Out of curiosity were the jinetes armed with javelins or "javelins"? I know there tends to be a lot of confusion over what that word means in 16th-17th century english. Edit: by which i mean did they actually carry short, light javelins designed for throwing, either one or a handful, or did they just carry a long cavalry spear which was sometimes thrown?


They're sometimes listed as lancegayes or archgayes in English and French sources, which might give another set of terms to search.


Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
Azagayas , probably a moorish kind and moorish name.

There are many other names of throwable spears in ancient Spanish, but some are too widely used (javalinas, dardos) and others seem very specific (gorguz or gurguz for naval warfare)


As Iagoba said, there are many names for throwable spear in Medieval Spain, azagaias (the way the Portuguese named them) being one. I recently bought Paulo Jorge Simões Agostinho's Vestidos para Matar: o armamento de guerra na cronística portuguesa de quatrocentos which dissecates the most relevant 15th-century Portuguese chronicles in the subject of weapon and armor. He identified 12 mentions of assengays, or azagaias, in those chronicles. The gorguz is mentioned 3 times, always as throwing weapons, but not enterily at sea: Agostinho says they were mentioned twice being used by french pirates and once in the hands of moslem warriors (pp. 184). He distinguishes the assengays from other weapons due to the fact that, while other spears were "christian weapons", the assengay was a moorish one (pp. 160). They were adopted by the Christians in Iberian Peninsula somewhere during the latter invasions of African Dynasties in Spain, but they were certainly being used by the Christians at the 14th century, as Froissart and other sources states.

Ian Heath supports the idea that the assengay had feathers, like a giant arrow; that is supported by the fact that french manuscripts describes them with a castilian soldier in the Siege of Lisbon of 1380's and at another instance, in the hands of a ottoman soldier (I can provide the picture from Froissart's Chronicles of the first but not the last one). But that doesn't mean the ginete only could throw the assengays: the "Lanza Gineta", a sort of lighter cavalry lance, could be used to thrust at the moorish fashion (striking with the arm held high or with both hands) AND be used to throw. According to 1385's Castillian Ordinance of Arms, all jinetes were expected to provide assengays and a lance. Portuguese "besteiros do Conto" were required to have 3 throwing spears (I believe they were assengays too), since they could be thrown at short distance when the crossbowmen couldn't shoot with the crossbow when enemy was too near.

One of the French Ordinances stipulate that Coustilliers were required to have assengays as well. According to George Gush's Renassaince Armies, Tudor's Yeomen of the Guard were also armed with assengays to use them on horseback. I find it weird that such information is seldom mentioned; perhaps the assengays didn't got much popularity in England and France, who knows ...


Huh. John Smythe writing in 1595 apparently thought "Lanezagaya" or "Zagaia" did refer to a Moorish weapon, but was essentially a very long, double-headed lance.

"in stead of Launces or speares, I woulde wish them to haue Launces commonlie called Laun•ezagayas of good, tite, and stiffe ash, coloured black, with double heads of good and hard temper according to the vse of the Moores, of 18. or 20. footlong; to the intent that taking them in the midst, they may strike both for∣ward and backewarde,"

Smythe did spend part of his career in spain. Maybe the definition changed over time?

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A12568.0001.001?rgn=main;view=toc

An illustration of tunisian cavalry with very long spears: http://warfare.ihostfull.com/Renaissance/Codi...4v-15r.htm
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