| Mario M. wrote: | ||
I missed that somehow. So, where do I buy the damn materials then? Any Hungarian, Czech or Eastern European sellers still working? |
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
| Mario M. wrote: |
| Anyone had any experience with the ringlord?
I am looking at the carbon steel ring prices and they aren't that bad; http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproduc...Jump+Rings |
But there are no rings with rivet holes.
| Mario M. wrote: |
| I thought they would be good at it by now. |
When Steve Sheldon first introduced the process to the Indians the product wasn't bad. Over time they started cutting more corners and using people who have never been properly trained. We now have "copies of copies" that don't have much in common with the original mail. The current product is worse than ever.
| Dan Howard wrote: |
|
FWIW these links were initially bright orange with rust. By the time I had completed one row, the links had been abraded so that they were nice and shiny and my lap was covered in rust. It shows that mail doesn't need any maintenance while it is being worn - it is self-cleaning. |
The links are in constant motion while the mail is being worn. The entire link is abraded, not just part of it. Mail does not need cleaning if it is worn regularly.
These are the pictures I got from GDFB UK of Ulfberht wedge riveted mail.
Note how thin the links are and the sharp corners on the overlaps
Some more pictures of Ulfberht mail from battle Merchant in Germany.
Yes, the rings are thin and overlap might be a little sharp. Still, rivets look like they would be much gentler than round ones. I have to think about this. It would be great if I could see the mail in person before deciding.
Yes, the rings are thin and overlap might be a little sharp. Still, rivets look like they would be much gentler than round ones. I have to think about this. It would be great if I could see the mail in person before deciding.
| Dan Howard wrote: |
| The links are in constant motion while the mail is being worn. The entire link is abraded, not just part of it. Mail does not need cleaning if it is worn regularly. |
| Luka Borscak wrote: |
| These are the pictures I got from GDFB UK of Ulfberht wedge riveted mail. |
Perhaps you would be interested in this;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P12B-Medieval-rivet...qIxZTkmqXQ
-scroll down to see larger images
The seller is from UK and has over 9500 points on the Bay.
Not exactly top notch, but it is a rounded ring construction nonetheless.
.
To Eric: I don't think statement is specfic enough to pin down as being ring or wrong. I person could be wearing a chain mail and just walking around around it it and sitting in chairregularly may still need to clean the shirt because the person isn't most much, thus the rings aren't moving much. But if you to do things in armour that the Roman legions were expected to do, march up hills, dig ditches, build roads, fortificvations, bridges, set up tents, hault items, cut down trees, hard manual labor, I bet you would you almost never need to clean your mail shirt because, barring mosoon levels of rain or weather so hot you sweat proverbial rivers through you clothing and padding, the mail is in a constant state of abrasion.
| Philip Dyer wrote: |
| To Eric: I don't think statement is specfic enough to pin down as being ring or wrong. I person could be wearing a chain mail and just walking around around it it and sitting in chairregularly may still need to clean the shirt because the person isn't most much, thus the rings aren't moving much. But if you to do things in armour that the Roman legions were expected to do, march up hills, dig ditches, build roads, fortificvations, bridges, set up tents, hault items, cut down trees, hard manual labor, I bet you would you almost never need to clean your mail shirt because, barring mosoon levels of rain or weather so hot you sweat proverbial rivers through you clothing and padding, the mail is in a constant state of abrasion. |
Phillip, no matter what you are doing in a hauberk, and no matter how long you are doing it there will be areas of the links which will not be touching other links, anyone who owns a hauberk can see this for themselves, this is just another one of Dan's unsubstantiated remarks. This is why in the past you see statements about having to clean hauberks and why in the present people who wear hauberks also have to clean their hauberks.
There is absolutely no way that a hauberk would be completely self cleaning. As the owner of several hauberks from both Europe and Indo-Persia along with other mail items I can easily look at the links and see that there are areas of the links that just will not come into contact with other links when being worn, even if you were doing back flips and cart wheels.
By the way, do you really think that Roman soldiers never took off their hauberks even when "march up hills, dig ditches, build roads, fortificvations, bridges, set up tents, hault items, cut down trees, hard manual labor"??? If they were not in fear of being attacked why would anyone wear heavy mail armor while doing hard physical labor???
Last edited by Eric S on Wed 15 Jun, 2016 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total
In any shirt of mail I ever worn, every rings was free to move a full circle. And every ring probably does given enough moving of the shirt. If it's to clean even the areas around the rivets, I'm not sure. But certainly enough to keep mail clean of rust most of the time on most of the ring surfaces...
| Mario M. wrote: | ||
Perhaps you would be interested in this; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P12B-Medieval-rivet...qIxZTkmqXQ -scroll down to see larger images The seller is from UK and has over 9500 points on the Bay. Not exactly top notch, but it is a rounded ring construction nonetheless. . |
Well, actually, the shirt below is on it's way to me. It's a used shirt but in like new condition, made by a maker in Poland. I think it will be perfect for my later 13th and 14th century reenacting.
I like this. It is far better than anything coming out of India.
The problem is that the maker is no longer making mail. So if one wants a good quality mail, he has nowhere to go for a relatively affordable price. One shirt from the same maker and same owner, but longer and with long sleeves sold here on myArmoury recently for 700 pounds. This one I payed 450. New they were more expensive of course.
| Luka Borscak wrote: |
| In any shirt of mail I ever worn, every rings was free to move a full circle. And every ring probably does given enough moving of the shirt. If it's to clean even the areas around the rivets, I'm not sure. But certainly enough to keep mail clean of rust most of the time on most of the ring surfaces... |
| Dan Howard wrote: |
| The links are in constant motion while the mail is being worn. The entire link is abraded, not just part of it. Mail does not need cleaning if it is worn regularly. |
Luka, do you or ANYONE else reading this actually believe that this is a completely true and accurate statement or not? There is absolutely NO way that the ENTIRE link is abraded, if you believe this then let your hauberk rust up and try wearing it until it is clean, let us know the results, no matter how long and no matter what you do in it you will still have rust on some parts of the links which will have to be cleaned by an alternate method. Words have meanings and if you say that...."The entire link is abraded"...then you should have some way to prove it. Some parts of the link may be cleaned by wearing it would be an accurate statement but not the entire link.
| Luka Borscak wrote: |
| The problem is that the maker is no longer making mail. So if one wants a good quality mail, he has nowhere to go for a relatively affordable price. One shirt from the same maker and same owner, but longer and with long sleeves sold here on myArmoury recently for 700 pounds. This one I payed 450. New they were more expensive of course. |
Unfortunately this is only going to get worse. The mail industry in India has shrunk substantially in the last couple of years. Approximately 12 workers out of the previous high of around 250 in various villages. 15 Contractors down to about 2 working with 4 exporters. People are simply not wanting to do that type of work for low wages any longer. With interest in the product fading, it's no wonder that the quality never improved. There was just no reason to invest more money in something that was quickly losing popularity. Out of all the reenactment products offered, demand for mail has decreased the most by a very large percentage. I highly doubt that the market will ever turn around. :(
| Eric S wrote: | ||||
Luka, do you or ANYONE else reading this actually believe that this is a completely true and accurate statement or not? There is absolutely NO way that the ENTIRE link is abraded, if you believe this then let your hauberk rust up and try wearing it until it is clean, let us know the results, no matter how long and no matter what you do in it you will still have rust on some parts of the links which will have to be cleaned by an alternate method. Words have meanings and if you say that...."The entire link is abraded"...then you should have some way to prove it. Some parts of the link may be cleaned by wearing it would be an accurate statement but not the entire link. |
He is basically implying that he has worn his mail shirts regularly and his shirts have cleaned itself via self abrasion. Also, it isn't a unreasonable statement to make that you are calling Lukas a lier.Also, what would involve letting a haubrek rust up? Wearing it very infrequently and not cleaning? Submerging in a bath tub, etc? Also, Lukas and yourself have both presented the same type of evidence, personal accedontal evidence. Ya'll are on equal ground in your respective points.
| Philip Dyer wrote: |
|
He is basically implying that he has worn his mail shirts regularly and his shirts have cleaned itself via self abrasion. |
He didnt say that at all, let Luca answer for himself. If you have your own personal experience than please present it. I own several European hauberks along with Indian, Ottoman, Persian hauberks and coifs and I am saying there is absolutely NO way that any of these would be COMPLETELY self cleaning no matter what Dan says. When observed in person anyone could easily see this, Dans experience with a SMALL patch of mail does not translate to a full hauberk, the links do not just spin around like the rims on your car, they will not just simply clean themselves off and keep nice and shiny. Why do some people here insist on trying to rationalize Dans unsubstantiated statements?
Last edited by Eric S on Wed 15 Jun, 2016 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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