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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,456

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ralph Grinly wrote:
Thats correct..As I said..it only took me ( relatively unskilled) 6 to 8 hours to ASSEMBLE one set of segmentata..all the parts were finished, assorted holes punched/drilled in appropriate places..all rivets, hinges, hooks, leathers, buckles finished and readily to hand.


Yes, that's a good point to emphasize. Assembly is only the last step! Just getting the shaped plates from forge-black to shiny would take one man at least a day or so. Making one hinge takes me an hour, so even for someone speedier, all the brass fittings are going to be a good day's work, *given the sheet brass of proper thickness*. If you're timing everything from the billet stage, someone has to hammer out brass sheet from cast blanks...

Quote:
Not a task that anyone with reasonable dexterity couldn't do in a similar time frame if shown HOW to assemble and had a lil practice.


True, and reenactors often take pride in making their own kit. But I still think it would be vastly more efficient for this to be done by full-time armor-makers (even semi-skilled). It just doesn't make sense to teach each soldier how to do this, especially when he's going to be double-busy with a normal training regimen as a new recruit!

Quote:
I don't think sementata were a "'superior" form of armour for the legions. But I do think it was, given the roman style of fighting en-mass an ADEQUATE armour.


Absolutely!


Wiliam P wrote:
my understanding is that segmentata is often lighter than hamata.. id assume that lighter means a more comfortable and easily bearable march to get around to various places especially when we consider the distances legionaires were known to travel.


Ounce per inch it's equivalent. My segmentata is 15 pounds; I also have a waist-length hamata which is too wide for me, weighing 17 pounds. If it were narrower, it would fit me fine and be a good 2 pounds lighter, and that's including shoulder doublings! The difference is that the hamata in the late Republic and Principate was *longer*, so it covered more of the body but would apparently been heavier overall. I suspect the hip-length short-sleeved shirts of the Dominate would run in the 20 pound range, maybe a little under. Obviously there was variation! But there was variation in segmentata plate thickness as well.

Quote:
do you guys think that marching in segmentata is easier than marching in hamata over decen distances?


Hoo, not sure, you'd have to talk to the guys who have done a lot of that. I'm guessing that having the shield strap over one shoulder and the packpole over the other would be better with plates under them! But the guys in mail did it all just the same, so I guess they got used to it. Other factors would be heat, rain resistance, overall comfort of the armor, etc.

Quote:
speaking of maintainence though, one issue with lamellar is that arows that are stopped, tend to still cut the leather lacing, segmentata could be vulnerable to similar issues, such as a sword cut slicing the main buckles/ thonging that fastned the armour at the front..


Nah, not a problem. There is a strap at the top and 5 or 6 individual ties. It would be impossible to cut them all with one stroke. Even if they were all cut, the armor would just sit there, it doesn't spring open or anything.

Quote:
do you think that the transition might also have to do with a changing army organisation.


Oh, I'd say when you get right down to it, it had just about everything to do with that!

Quote:
Diocletian didnt start the trend of phasing out the segmentata


Well, we don't really know when it all started, it might not have been a completely concious decision by anyone. That quoted bit from Goldsworthy about distinctions between legionaries and auxiliaries is largely speculative, since we are not at all sure that the segmentata was EVER exclusive to the legions! By the third century, visual differences between legionaries and auxiliaries were already going away, from what we can tell. No big deal, all the stuff worked fine, eh? For all we know, the demand for segmentata may already have been declining due to changes in fashion, so that when centralization took place there simply wasn't enough call for dedicating factories to it.

Quote:
could that tendency of those men being considered more precious, maybe mean they are given more serviceable but initially more expensive amour to keep their survival chances up.


Hmm, dunno! I think you'd have to find some reference to that effect to make it a valid argument. I don't think there's much indication that the overall level of armoring increased. Throughout the centuries there seem to have been ups and downs with the average level of armor, but even in the early 2nd century, when we know some guys had long mail or scale shirts, greaves, and a manica, there were also legionaries with just helmet and shield!

Valete,

Matthew
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Gary Teuscher





Joined: 19 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like the time to assemble the mail of a hamata was maybe 20 working days, the segmentata 1 day.

Any ideas or estimates of the time needed to forge the plates composing the segmentata, and to forge the wire needed for a hamata?
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 21 May, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary Teuscher wrote:
Looks like the time to assemble the mail of a hamata was maybe 20 working days, the segmentata 1 day.

Any ideas or estimates of the time needed to forge the plates composing the segmentata, and to forge the wire needed for a hamata?


If all the components were already made then a hamata can be assembled by one person in 6-7 days. No idea about the time required to manufacture the components.

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Kirk K.





Joined: 24 May 2016

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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2016 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A lot of facsinating discussion about production methods, cost and time required. One other critical factor is the relative effectiveness of mail versus segmentata against the common attacks of the day; a sword slash, a javelin or arrow hit, a spear or dagger thrust, etc. If you guys could fill that in for us less educated folks, that would be appreciated.

And BTW, in the very long run mail disappeared but segmata keeps popping up again. WWII bomber crews wore segmentata 'flak jackets' and you will find a number of modern warriors wearing Dragon Skin segmentata armor in hotspots around the world. The only place I still see mail is in protective garb for butchers and 'shark suits' for divers.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk K. wrote:
A lot of facsinating discussion about production methods, cost and time required. One other critical factor is the relative effectiveness of mail versus segmentata against the common attacks of the day; a sword slash, a javelin or arrow hit, a spear or dagger thrust, etc. If you guys could fill that in for us less educated folks, that would be appreciated.

There is no appreciable difference. All armour provides very similar protection and would stop pretty much everything the Romans had to face on the battlefield. Mail is a little more susceptible to blunt trauma but even that is exaggerated.

Start with this.
http://myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html

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Kirk K.





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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Dan. Good article.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2016 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most armor stops most weapons most of the time. Obviously the physics of each type is different, but I suspect most soldiers (Romans, we're talking, here) were not necessarily *primarily* obsessed by the perfectly scientific analysis of what gave half a percent better protection against whatever weapon. They also considered weight because they had to march in it, maintenance because they had to get it fixed, comfort because they spent so much time in it (and slung things over it, etc.), cost because they had to pay for it. Supply officers wanted something easy to store. Parade officers wanted nice bling to look good and keep the soldiers busy. Contractors wanted a nice profit margin.

Sure, the segmentata was better against the modern terror of Blunt Force Trauma. I'd be willing to bet that VERY few Roman soldiers saw many buddies killed by blunt trauma, much less blunt trauma caused *through* armor. They certainly knew about wounds from blades and points, though. So were they worried about getting bones shattered and kidneys ruptured under mail, or were they more concerned that a segmentata was a lot shorter than a hamata? Interesting that the Adamklissi monument shows legionaries facing that nasty slashing Dacian falx, and not ONE of them are in segmentata--only mail and scale armor.

BUT---the segmentata is better at keeping the rain off! Keeps your pack pole from digging into your shoulder so much, too. Huh...

Matthew
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Kirk K.





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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am guessing flat mail links are cut from tubing and round ones from wire? Or are wire links merely pounded flat?

It appears that a flat link would be harder for a penetrating point to spread or break. So does flat link mail generally work better than wire link mail?
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,456

PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2016 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk K. wrote:
I am guessing flat mail links are cut from tubing and round ones from wire? Or are wire links merely pounded flat?


Not sure what you mean. The *solid* links are punched from sheet, or *possibly* (but certainly not in all cases) welded from open wire links. There was a theory about slicing tube for making the solid rings, but I found it utterly ridiculous and unconvincing. Riveted links can be round wire or flattened (generally from round wire I *think*), or something in between! Drawn wire is typically round, but you can also make wire by cutting slices off sheet, and sometimes rolling that to make it rounder, though that may have been more common with gold and silver than with iron? Dunno!

Quote:
It appears that a flat link would be harder for a penetrating point to spread or break. So does flat link mail generally work better than wire link mail?


Too many variables. VERY subtle differences in the thickness of the wire will have an effect on strength and weight, plus there also may be slag inclusions or other flaws. Apparently, when properly riveted rings break, it's not the riveted joint that fails! Again, whether a culture uses round-section wire links or flattened may depend a lot more on infrastructure and techniques than on some detailed study of what type gives you .03 percent better protection.

Matthew
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