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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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 Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: ID help with sword ? |
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A gentleman posted on NetSword asking for help in identifying a sword in his possession !
The following is the information he gave on it, and I will attach the photos he sent me !
* I've not been able to find anything in my references that is similar ?
Any help is appreciated ...... thanks in advance, Mac
Sword Experts:
I have a very old (early 1700s, I believe) basket-hilted double edged broadsword that I believe may be something special. The blade has the Passau Running Wolf and a Christian crucifix inlaid with copper. I have gone to every site I can find, and have not seen one like it. This sword was in my great Grandfather's attic along with a couple of Civil War swords, that ended up being quite valuable.
I'm now trying to figure out what this is....and whether it needs to be in a vault....with armed guards.
It is a baskethilted double-edged broadsword. The blade is 30" long and the entire sword is 37" long. The basket looks like brass, and the handle seems to be wound with braided copper wire. The blade is about 1.2" wide and very thin. It is flexible side-to-side.....I would assume this was a fighting sword, but for slashing rather than jabbing.(enemy not armoured?)
I have a folder of very detailed photos of the sword that I seem to only be able to attach to an E-Mail. If there is some sword guys out there who can send me an E-Mail address, I can shoot the picture folder to them.
Thanks, Brad Greene
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Sean Flynt
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | Bizzare. Looks like the offspring of a late regimental basket and a waloon. Blade looks much earlier than the hilt, maybe 16th c.(?) |
Hi Sean
Yes, I too suspect the blade to be alot older than the hilt !
I can't figure out what those two tabs on the knuckle guard are for ? (There are two holes across from them on the basket as well ? ) Wonder what would have been mounted to them ?
Where's Eljay :-) Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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This sword looks like a conglomeration of different parts to me.
The knuckle bow looks as if it once had an attached thumb ring and probably a small up-turned quillon knob on the off side. The half-basket, or whatever you want to cal it, doesn't look like it belongs at all, and the blade looks far older that the other components.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: .....a genuine puzzle....... |
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I concur. The 'basket' looks a lot newer, and more machined than handmade. The guard and knucklebow look like it's from some sort of court sword. I've never seen anything close to it. ????.........mcm.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Looks rather like some of the German minor principalities' Heavy Cavalry swords from the early-to-mid-18th Century. Sort of a Walloon, but with odd imbellishments. Some did come with brass hilts, and it wouldn't be at all surprising to see one with an older blade on it from some armourer's attempt to keep something serviceable. Interesting piece.
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | I can't figure out what those two tabs on the knuckle guard are for ? (There are two holes across from them on the basket as well ? ) Wonder what would have been mounted to them ? |
If I had made that sword, and put things like that on there it would have been to attach a plate between the knuckle guard and the basket. That way you could fill out the basket a little more, and get a bit of extra protection for the hand. I have no clue why you would want to make a piece in that fashion. What would be the point? So you could remove it, sure, but to what end? I suppose we could be looking at an early example of man's incessant desire to have a "modular weapons system," but I think some other explanation is more likely. In fact, I think the most likely option is that the holes in the guard are more recent than the guard itself, and was used to do just what I said (attach a plate for added protection), but as a personalized "improvement" rather than an integral part of the original design. The "nubs" on the knuckle bow look to have been brazed (rather than being one piece with the guard), and who's to say whether that happened at the time of original manufacture, or a generation later? Besides, if I were going to put holes in the basket portion of that guard, I would either not drill the holes through the decoration, or just not bother with the decoration in the first place.
If I am right (and I may very well not be), this sword would make an interesting example of recycling in history. Old blade placed in new hilt, then the hilt was modified to suit {presumably} new owner's tastes and/or current fashion. Now, if you modified the sword (say, narrowed or shortened the blade), would you be carrying on a tradition or defacing history? Or do we even want to get started on that subject? Probably not.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts, and they are based more on asking myself, "if I put those holes there, why would I have done so?" rather than any kind of historical precedent or research.
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Greyson Brown wrote: | | Thomas McDonald wrote: | | I can't figure out what those two tabs on the knuckle guard are for ? (There are two holes across from them on the basket as well ? ) Wonder what would have been mounted to them ? |
If I had made that sword, and put things like that on there it would have been to attach a plate between the knuckle guard and the basket. That way you could fill out the basket a little more, and get a bit of extra protection for the hand. I have no clue why you would want to make a piece in that fashion. What would be the point? So you could remove it, sure, but to what end? I suppose we could be looking at an early example of man's incessant desire to have a "modular weapons system," but I think some other explanation is more likely. In fact, I think the most likely option is that the holes in the guard are more recent than the guard itself, and was used to do just what I said (attach a plate for added protection), but as a personalized "improvement" rather than an integral part of the original design. The "nubs" on the knuckle bow look to have been brazed (rather than being one piece with the guard), and who's to say whether that happened at the time of original manufacture, or a generation later? Besides, if I were going to put holes in the basket portion of that guard, I would either not drill the holes through the decoration, or just not bother with the decoration in the first place.
If I am right (and I may very well not be), this sword would make an interesting example of recycling in history. Old blade placed in new hilt, then the hilt was modified to suit {presumably} new owner's tastes and/or current fashion. Now, if you modified the sword (say, narrowed or shortened the blade), would you be carrying on a tradition or defacing history? Or do we even want to get started on that subject? Probably not.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts, and they are based more on asking myself, "if I put those holes there, why would I have done so?" rather than any kind of historical precedent or research.
-Grey |
I was thinking continental as well, something of a palanche. The hilt could be bright from polishing through the ages. The missing plate probably holds the key, a crest of some sort, I imagine.
The wire work is fantastic. Most of the hilt really does have an 18th century look to it, grip shape and pommel.
Cheers
GC
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Tue 18 Jan, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I think that this is a definite puzzle of a sword. I'm no expert on swords yet but here are my observations for what they're worth. I think it's made from portions of at least 3, maybe 4 types of swords. Here is the breakdown as I see it.
The knuckle bow is from a smallsword and has been modified to remove the top quillon/counterguard. I think that the date of early 1700 must be close because of the way the pommel is attached to the knuckle bow. I think that the pommel came from the same smallsword because the decorative motif is consistent with the knuckle bow. The grip could be from when the sword was put into it's present form or of a different vintage (later?).
The basket came from a second sword (or was a spare part) probably a dussage or a saber. The thumbring was broken (not cut by the looks of it) off at some point and came from another sword (or the dussage?). You can tell that the smallsword guard was modified to make it fit.
The blade is from yet another sword  . definitely older than the other parts.
We now come to those holes in the guard and the tabs... I have no clue  ! I'm pretty sure that they were not originally part of the respective components. They could have held something as an extra guard or a regimental emblem or maybe something organic that has since disappeared.
Quite a pretty little mystery... Maybe my ramblings will stir a recollection with some of our more knowledgable members and we'll figure this one out.
Cheers,
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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