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Jaroslaw Dominski





Joined: 11 Jul 2008

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 10 Jun, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am still working with my project of 16th/17th century mercenary.
I have chosen 16th century half harness from Nurnberg, dated circa 1590, so possibly you might be interested

But at first... I have prepared some clothings (based on diaries and known
sources like inventories, and findings etc.) so:
- shirts -> one black embroided linen shirt, two white fine linen shirts,
and one ordinary,
- breeches -> wool, 2 pairs, one for winter, one for summer period
- wams -> as above

--- patterns taken from Janet's Arnold Pattern of Fashion (as far as I remember vol 4 and 5), and I would strongly recommend those books. You could also check Tudor's Tailor.

Important thing is that if you would like to reconstruct a prince, for example,
your harness, clothing and other things adequate to social position will cost a fortune today as well as it was in 16th century Happy

- one arming wams with chainmail sleeves (firstly without maille, it works fine as fencing jacket), leather with wool padding
- 4 pairs of linen stockings: two ordinary, and two black embroided
- 2 pairs of underwear
- leather gloves, 2 pairs (1 nicely done and 1 ordinary)
- riding boots
- addons are: belts, pendent, belt bag and other details
- sidearms and maingauche and other stuff

Then I have focused on armour, in order:
- gorget - as base and more important
- pauldrons - on several paintings from period you could find such a combination, as proper and works fine as traing set both on foot and mounted
- breastplate and backplate
- helmet was the last part
At now it works fine as half harness, but I would get a proper tassets and gauntlets, to finish this project

At now I have to work out any problems with armour (such as weak buckles, belt straps and any unfittings).

My breastplate has about 2mm on side, and front is about 5mm - all set weights about 20-25 kg (in this maille is about 8 I guess). It works fine. I am using this on foot - tourment one-on-one combat.
On horseback I have even fall once from horseback in careere after few unexpected jumps) - tho most important thing I guess is that armour should fits.

You said that you are thinking about stainless steel - I think that it is bad idea. If I were you and would like to spend some money on historical accurate stuff, I would focus on correct/authentic materials.

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Joshua Santana




Location: Bayville, NJ
Joined: 29 Mar 2011

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I have chosen 16th century half harness from Nurnberg, dated circa 1590, so possibly you might be interested


Thank you Jaroslaw, however my Kit is dated 1580 (ten years earlier than yours) but thank you.

Quote:
But at first... I have prepared some clothings (based on diaries and known
sources like inventories, and findings etc.) so:
- shirts -> one black embroided linen shirt, two white fine linen shirts,
and one ordinary,
- breeches -> wool, 2 pairs, one for winter, one for summer period
- wams -> as above


Interesting Soft Kit Plan, I can tell that you're encouraging me to do the same in which I would take your advice. Thank you, this is very helpful.

Quote:
patterns taken from Janet's Arnold Pattern of Fashion (as far as I remember vol 4 and 5), and I would strongly recommend those books. You could also check Tudor's Tailor.


Thank you very much for the recommendations, I will look into them. I am intending on using Tudor Tailor for the Soft Kit, The extras will be announced later on.

Quote:
- one arming wams with chainmail sleeves (firstly without maille, it works fine as fencing jacket), leather with wool padding
- 4 pairs of linen stockings: two ordinary, and two black embroided
- 2 pairs of underwear
- leather gloves, 2 pairs (1 nicely done and 1 ordinary)
- riding boots
- addons are: belts, pendent, belt bag and other details
- sidearms and maingauche and other stuff


Very nice and I will use this when ordering the mentioned items. One question is where is a good source for period accurate Riding Boots?

Quote:
Then I have focused on armour, in order:
- gorget - as base and more important
- pauldrons - on several paintings from period you could find such a combination, as proper and works fine as traing set both on foot and mounted
- breastplate and backplate
- helmet was the last part
At now it works fine as half harness, but I would get a proper tassets and gauntlets, to finish this project


I see, I can tell that each piece is important. But I like the plan layout. Another thing that I have noticed in the earlier part of the thread is that there are several portraits in which the Breast ad Back Plates do not have Tassets but I see that Tassets are essential. Thank you, I like the plan layout.

Quote:
My breastplate has about 2mm on side, and front is about 5mm - all set weights about 20-25 kg (in this maille is about 8 I guess). It works fine. I am using this on foot - tourment one-on-one combat.
On horseback I have even fall once from horseback in careere after few unexpected jumps) - tho most important thing I guess is that armour should fits.


I see, so I should use 2mm for the sides and 5mm on the front for my Breast and Back Plates or should I use a different gauge setting since I intend on using my Kit for on foot - tournament, one on one combat?

Quote:
You said that you are thinking about stainless steel - I think that it is bad idea. If I were you and would like to spend some money on historical accurate stuff, I would focus on correct/authentic materials.


I see, at this point due to my tight budget, that is the reason why I am using stainless steel from Illusion. Later on when my budget gets less tight, I will call Jeff Wasson and see if he would take up the offer for a Spring Steel 16th Century Half-Harness. The other thing is that I will be using this Kit to replicate 16th Century Judicial Combat/Armored Combat which is why I decided to add the full leg harness and Gauntlets as last to replicate fighting with the Poleaxe and Spadone (Italian Two-Handed Great Sword) in full harness and using the Half-Harness to replicate Renaissance Sidesword and Rotella Combat and Sword and Buckler Combat as well. I expect the Kit to take serious to light hits which is why I opt for stainless steel (the lesser evil to mild steel).

I thank you for your recommendations and advice, this is mots helpful. Any comments, suggestions, recommendations are always welcome.

Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio

Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Jaroslaw Dominski





Joined: 11 Jul 2008

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In that kind of armour ten years backward or forward will not be a problem (conception is the same).
But in clothings it could be slight difference Happy
I thing that that type of armour would be the best because it is possible to use gorget and cuirass with several combinations, form full harness to halfarmour or even just collar.

Anyway, check this out:

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50/Dstab...?start=all
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms-armor...amp;page=6
http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/german-c-1...ite-armour
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/archive.html?id=53
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6755612

The last is especially interesting - see stakes on gorget? Spauldrons under gorget are usually connected permanently, here you could see removeable. My set is in Landeszeughaus Graz Museum, you could find it also in Osprey's Imperial Armies of the Thirty Years' War part II Cavalry.

As for boots... My are machinesewed, but I am waiting for reconstruction.
I live in Poland I think that one of the best here is Karol Stanios / http://www.stanios.pl
On his website you could find some pics of earlier boots, but at now he prepares for me reconstruction of Gustav Adolfs's. From links posted before Sarah Juniper's site looks interesting http://sarahjuniper.co.uk

The breast should be made by smith - that is why it is thinner on sides - it is not necessary to have strong armour there.
If you use pattern o steel probably 2 - 3 mm would be ok, but breastplate should be stronger.
I am still thinking that stainless or springsteel are not good choice - it is better to wait and get some more money to buy perfect (if perfection is ever possible) kit, than buying whatever and change it later (paying two times takes more than once)

In armour you should have some space for belly (just for free breath).
Armpit should not go to high. all edges should be rounded for safety.
You should measure armour on padded jacket or arming wams - not on shirt - it could be obvious but better be warned.
You should move... Check if anything works slightly.

I am courious about you project.

PS Please excuse my mistakes - it is not my native language and it is easier for me to read something than writing Wink
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 587

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The use of etching on tournament armour is by no means universal. I have worked on a lot of tournament armour of Italian and German origin that was not etched, and there are a fair number of museum examples, even though they tend to select the most ornate armours for their displays.


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Joshua Santana




Location: Bayville, NJ
Joined: 29 Mar 2011

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
As for boots... My are machinesewed, but I am waiting for reconstruction.
I live in Poland I think that one of the best here is Karol Stanios / http://www.stanios.pl
On his website you could find some pics of earlier boots, but at now he prepares for me reconstruction of Gustav Adolfs's. From links posted before Sarah Juniper's site looks interesting http://sarahjuniper.co.uk


Thank you very much, this is most helpful.

Quote:
The breast should be made by smith - that is why it is thinner on sides - it is not necessary to have strong armour there.
If you use pattern o steel probably 2 - 3 mm would be ok, but breastplate should be stronger.
I am still thinking that stainless or springsteel are not good choice - it is better to wait and get some more money to buy perfect (if perfection is ever possible) kit, than buying whatever and change it later (paying two times takes more than once)


I see, well since my project requires the armor to be able to withstand blows and that can dent mild steel armor (although it is the accurate material) that is why I have decided to stick with either stainless steel or spring steel for this aspect alone.

Quote:
In armour you should have some space for belly (just for free breath).
Armpit should not go to high. all edges should be rounded for safety.
You should measure armour on padded jacket or arming wams - not on shirt - it could be obvious but better be warned.
You should move... Check if anything works slightly.


Yep, I agree. That is why I will have the edges rolled and will invest of the Soft Kit and Arming Doublet.

Quote:
The use of etching on tournament armour is by no means universal. I have worked on a lot of tournament armour of Italian and German origin that was not etched, and there are a fair number of museum examples, even though they tend to select the most ornate armours for their displays.


I just noticed that after looking at the photo you posted and other museum examples. That is most helpful and it is close to what I am getting out of my Kit.


So far this is what I am getting in terms of the Kit:

1. Late 16th Century, circa 1580

2. Invest in the Soft Kit and equipment First to lay the garb foundation.

3. Afterwards invest in the Arming Doublet (does anyone know a good source to order one?)

4. Invest in the Hard Kit, start off with the Half Harness.

5. Later on, order leg harness and gauntlets.

In the long run, I am looking at something like this (although it is early 17th Century Armor, Geneva)



Would it make things better or worse if I changed it from late 16th Century to early 17th Century? I know this calls for a change in Soft Kit design (ending up more like what a Cavalier would have looked like in regular garb).

Help, suggestions, recommendations are always welcome.

Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio

Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd also suggest switching the sabatons, as those look 14th century.
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Jaroslaw Dominski





Joined: 11 Jul 2008

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is beautiful tourment armour 1590, Italy (Milan: Pompeo della Cesa)
Photos found on Flickr.



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Joshua Santana




Location: Bayville, NJ
Joined: 29 Mar 2011

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd also suggest switching the sabatons, as those look 14th century.


That has been decided. I will look for the right sabatons.

Quote:
Here is beautiful tourment armour 1590, Italy (Milan: Pompeo della Cesa)


Thank you Jaroslaw, much appreciated. That is exactly what I am looking at. Rather instead of debating about what pieces are appropriate, I should be asking is it ok to get my 16th Century Kit/Tourney Armor without etching?

Still thank you.

Here we go again (not hopefully spinning anyone's head's)

1. Kit is a combo of an Elizabethan/Late 16th Century Garb/Soft Kit and Late 16th Century Tourney Armor, later on turning into a full garniture.

2. Will start with the soft kit first as to lay Garb foundations.

3. Afterwards will measure for Arming Doublet (any suggestions where to order one? I'm thinking of getting one via Fuhlen Designs)

4. Lastly will measure for Tourney Armor, later on will add leg harness, greaves and right sabatons.

End result: an awesome Late 16th Century Kit.
Will have photos of the designing process as time goes by.

Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio

Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jun, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sir Joshua, I would advise you to increase the thickness of your armour. If you plan to use it in combat, 20 gauge isn't going to do much other than dent and become deformed. Even 18 gauge is running a little thin (unless you have tempered spring steel). 16 gauge is about right for most combat, and it wouldn't be that crazy to make the helm 14 gauge.
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Joshua Santana




Location: Bayville, NJ
Joined: 29 Mar 2011

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jun, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan: I thank you for your advice, it is most helpful. I was considering spring steel at the appropriate gauge (although I am waiting for Mr. Wasson for his input).

However if that option is not available I will order 16 gauge steel armor and 14 gauge helmet to boot.

Quote:
1. Kit is a combo of an Elizabethan/Late 16th Century Garb/Soft Kit and Late 16th Century Tourney Armor, later on turning into a full garniture.

2. Will start with the soft kit first as to lay Garb foundations.

3. Afterwards will measure for Arming Doublet (any suggestions where to order one? I'm thinking of getting one via Fuhlen Designs)

4. Lastly will measure for Tourney Armor, later on will add leg harness, greaves and right sabatons.


All of the armor pieces (as me editing this plan layout) will in either 16 or 14 gauge stainless steel. If spring steel is teh option I will let you guys know about it.

Till then, photos will be up as soon as the garb and pieces arrive.

Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio

Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And it depends on what you intend doing in it. Jeff will be able to advise on the thickness and hardening specs you will need. But if you intend using steel coronels unless you are layering up with exchange pieces then even 14 might be a bit thin in some places if not hardened. The legs can be much lighter of course.

I've come across this thread as I'm just researching the same kind of info to create 2 garnitures for the 1570/80's. Prob one Italian and one English although I haven't looked at French or Flemish stuff yet. Lots of fun to come!

Having fought at barriers in Greenwhich armour I can say that the arming doublet does not need to be made that thick if the armour is good and well fitted. I used a lightly wadded silk and linen doublet made by Ruth Goodman of the Tudor Group (and many tv programmes) which worked very well. a more stouter earlier type of garment and I might not have been so sprightly.

Re the etching, yes, go without unless you can afford to do it well. Don't compromise the form and efficiency by spending money on decoration or you might end up an etched and gilt corpse than a plain but living tournier! To do decoration in this era takes a heck of a lot of time effort and money.

Best of luck with it all!

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep, 2015 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I will add a neck gorget to make thing safe and complete.


There are a multitude of portraits of gentlemen where the gorget is the one bit of armour they are wearing. Its perfectly fine to wear it as a dress accessory to show off your martial spirit. If you wanted to get something that was a bit blingy, that's the thing.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Theo Squires





Joined: 23 Jul 2012

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joshua Santana wrote:


In the long run, I am looking at something like this (although it is early 17th Century Armor, Geneva)



Would it make things better or worse if I changed it from late 16th Century to early 17th Century? I know this calls for a change in Soft Kit design (ending up more like what a Cavalier would have looked like in regular garb).

Help, suggestions, recommendations are always welcome.


There are many armours very similar to that one all through 1540-1600s. I'd consider what sort of weapon you want, because sword designs probably changed more during this period than armour designs (although perhaps still not a great deal). If that doesn't matter, then I'd say go for an earlier kit than a later kit. Tourneys were declining in favour 1560s onward. Have a look at this gallery I made of armours 1540-1600 and see what you like. You've probably already seen some/many of them before. Of particular note is the harness from 1580, which has a very clean un-etched look.

EDIT: Oops, I now see that I'm replying to a 3yr old post. Mark, you tricked me! Wink Hopefully it's still helpful to someone.
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