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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric S wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
The all-riveted construction does make the dating suspect, doesn't it?


Thats an important question, is that a proven fact without any doubt or is it an assumption with room for error.


I would say neither. To disprove it as a fact would only require one example of all riveted mail provably dating to before c.1275 or so, either extant or in inventory descriptions. To say that it is merely an assumption denies the evidence we have for all riveted construction becoming more common in Europe after c. 1300. Of course, all theories should be challenged in search of truth.


I guess it depends on if you can believe this.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Dec, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:

I guess it depends on if you can believe this.

That doesn't mean anything unless it was dug up by an archaeologist who could confirm the stratigraphy and determine the context of the find. That is the problem with looting - there is no dig report. Once the item is removed from the site it is impossible to determine provinance.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Dec, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viktor,

Can you supply us with the information from footnote 2, or any further information of the find site?

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Dec, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Stanley Hauser wrote:
Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
This site has a ton of pictures of Middle Eastern and South Asian mail, some of which are up close.


Awesome! Now only if they had a European mail gallery...


Now that would be something, imagine all of the known European mail images collected and made available for viewing in one place, that would be a worth while effort.

http://www.pinterest.com/samuraiantiques/european-mail-armor/


Does Pintrest force you to log in now to look at collections on there?

J

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Viktor Asenov
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Dec, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to disappoint You guys...
That's all of the information that I have through the catalogue about this maille shirt...

Regards,
Viktor
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Dec, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Before I spend time downloading and re-sizing etc a few mail pics from Leeds RA, is the shirt displayed with the John Smythe armour on this thread? plus any others from the displays? Not from catalogues or the store etc.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Dec, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:

Does Pintrest force you to log in now to look at collections on there?

Jean, not as far as I know, try this link.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/european-mail-armor/
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Dec, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark, here is another one of your pictures, any information on the helmet or the hauberk (interesting collar), museum, dates etc???

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Dec, 2014 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
Before I spend time downloading and re-sizing etc a few mail pics from Leeds RA, is the shirt displayed with the John Smythe armour on this thread? plus any others from the displays? Not from catalogues or the store etc.


As far as I am aware there are no images of the hauberk shown with the John Smythe armor other than in some small sized full shots and a few glimpses from some close up images of the armor. I do not recall any of the Royal Armouries hauberks being posted here that were taken from the displays.





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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Dec, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's interesting to note how fine the links of the Smythe shirt are, and how relatively widely flattened the overlap is. In certain lighting conditions, they look passingly similar to some of the production mail I've seen, albeit with much finer links.

It also looks as though his left gauntlet has taken a blow near the inside of the wrist (either that, or some sort of unusual creasing of the gauntlet due to design, accident, etc...)

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Dec, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is there any reason to think that the mail exhibited with the Smythe armor is a shirt, rather than a pair of sleeves?

Mac

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Dec, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert MacPherson wrote:
Is there any reason to think that the mail exhibited with the Smythe armor is a shirt, rather than a pair of sleeves?

Mac


For me no, other than the fact that Mark called it a shirt. Maybe someone has some more info on this. Even if not a full hauberk it could still be a shirt.



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Eric S




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2015 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Currently up for auction, clearly this was completely misidentified.


Quote:
European mail shirt , circa 1600, formed of flattened riveted rings extending to the upper thigh and covering the upper arms, the front vent with hook closure. H: 28 1/2 in. (approx).


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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You are right Mac, could be anything. My bad! Sloppy..

Anyway, if you type 'vamplate' into google (as I'm buying some more so my hand stays attached) this pic comes up, linked with a Scrabble definition/scores site.

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2935/14780434032_fd474379f9_m.jpg

the pic isn't on the site, is tiny and I have no more info. Looks intriguing though...

The holes in the rear lead me to think it might be mail but without a better pic, no idea.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And re the shirt with the horizontally quilted collar withthe open faced helmet on top. Royal Armouries Turin. So your guess is as good as anyones...
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:

Anyway, if you type 'vamplate' into google (as I'm buying some more so my hand stays attached) this pic comes up, linked with a Scrabble definition/scores site.

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2935/14780434032_fd474379f9_m.jpg

the pic isn't on the site, is tiny and I have no more info. Looks intriguing though...

The holes in the rear lead me to think it might be mail but without a better pic, no idea.


Strange, indeed. I wonder where this is from....



Where ever it is, it's another example of a mail garment which depends on a fabric component.

I did an Google image search, but the only hits were from that side you mentioned.

Mac

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll add it to your other threads, Mac.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126377022@N07/14780434032

Quote:
Image from page 450 of "Illustrated catalogue of the exceedingly rare and valuable art treasures and antiquities formerly contained in the famous Davanzati Palace, Florence, Italy" (1916)

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Mart!

Mac

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert MacPherson wrote:
Mark Griffin wrote:

Anyway, if you type 'vamplate' into google (as I'm buying some more so my hand stays attached) this pic comes up, linked with a Scrabble definition/scores site.

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2935/14780434032_fd474379f9_m.jpg

the pic isn't on the site, is tiny and I have no more info. Looks intriguing though...

The holes in the rear lead me to think it might be mail but without a better pic, no idea.


Strange, indeed. I wonder where this is from....



Where ever it is, it's another example of a mail garment which depends on a fabric component.

I did an Google image search, but the only hits were from that side you mentioned.

Mac


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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Eric! That's the one alright.

Tom Billiter just posted a link to this page over on the AA. https://archive.org/stream/ilcdavaatal00amer/ilcdavaatal00amer#page/n450/mode/1up




It would be nice if we could tell which of those identically described lots is the one illustrated. I am pretty sure I have not seen this in the Met's accession cards, so I suspect that the one illustrated in the catalog did not go to them.

Mac

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