[Mike Ruhala]

What kind of results do you get? Especially against tatami and especially with a zwerchau.

I've used a Talhoffer on cardboard boxes and it didn't do very well which turned me off to the type but I've heard people are getting better results on tatami which is mostly what I cut these days.

Also have you noticed a difference in performance between the Mercenary/Castellan/Constable family and the Agincourt/Talhoffer/Ringeck/Fiore family?

[Hector A.]

If you didn't get good results its just that your sword isn't sharp enough.

Give me some feedback on your sword, can you slice paper with it? ( cut paper while pulling back or forth)
If so, can it push threw paper? ( Penetrate and cut it without any pulling motion, just pushing with force )
Alternatively if you can't push threw paper, will it shave arm hair off your arm?

If the answer to the last 2 above is no, then that sword is not sharp enough and certainly not in its intended state, you will be able to cut certain things with skill and varying degree's of effort but it will never be truly effective.

Also with type XVa swords cutting with the COP is recommended, the point wont cut anything properly other than soft tissue (meat) and it will never be very deep.

These swords where intended for use against mail primarily, and for stabbing threw it. If they where to be used against padded defenses the point would be wider to deal more damage while stabbing and increasing its cutting power at the tip, if it was intended for thin articulations of the 16th century armor's it would have a re-enforced point to pierce threw it.

Every sword has its use.

As for my personal use with XVa swords i own a Cluny, that i think all will agree is far slimmer than other Albion XVa's and i can cut threw bottles, meat, tatami and rolled up news paper rolls well with it, its definitely not my best cutter, but sharp and hitting at the COP with force makes it good enough to amputate an arm.

[Greyson Brown]

Mike,

I am going to disagree with Hector a little bit. Sharpness can make a difference, but I am not convinced that the XVa type swords should necessarily be able to push through paper or shave hair. Every sword design has its purpose, and the XV and XVa are designed primary for thrusting. That doesn't mean that they can't cut (and in some cases do so quite well), but they were designed around other criteria which makes a thin edge less desirable. Oakshott likened this type to a sharpened crowbar; they are surprisingly stout and pack a good wallop when swung, but they are still intended for thrusting.

What I have found with my Agincourt, and this corroborates the other part of what Hector said, is that hitting at the center of percussion (CoP) makes a significant difference in the ease of cutting. I feel that the XV and XVa swords are less forgiving in this regard. I think their stiffness leads to a narrower CoP so hitting correctly is a bit harder. That said, I only have experience with my Agincourt and an older Windlass sword of similar profile; I have never used the wider XVa's like the Mercenary. I could see the wider blade making cuts easier, but I could also see the more drastic taper making the blade that much stiffer, and actually making cuts more difficult. I really just don't know.

It should also be noted that almost all of my cutting has been against water-filed plastic bottles, so the medium could make a difference as you suggested. I did find that pulling the blade back ever so slightly at the moment of contact (basically a draw-cut) improved my cutting results with my Agincourt. I don't know if that is really advisable, but it worked for me.

- Greyson

[Hector A.]

Every sword should and can push threw paper, it is a test like many others that mean the edge is honed enough to cut correctly threw textile, noticeably linen. ( you can get away with cutting cotton with a less polished edge ). Its a honed edge that pushes threw paper, not geometry...My svante can push threw paper all day, as can my cluny and all my others swords despite there obvious differences, none have a particularly thin edges either, geometry however varies, yet they all pass the test.
As for XVa being thrusters your correct but they are primarily mail thrusters, thin needle points that can get many inches threw mail without being so easily trapped by it, they are not crowbars however, they are not stout or stiff enough for that, XVII are crowbars, XVIIIe are crowbars.

As for a mercenary it is wider, making it a better cutter, not worse... -_-

[Mark T]

Mike -

Some years back, Mike E had a thread here where he documented cutting with Albion's Talhoffer ... my main recollection is that it cut better than he was expecting.

But that might have been before his 'Spadona enlightenment' ... and whatever other experience he's gained since.

[Mike Ruhala]

I'm not so much trying to select a sword for cutting practice, I'm curious about what the XVa type can do.

As far as a cutter goes I like the Baron, I've cut three tatami omote mats rolled together with it on a zornhauw and of course it'll cut all the masters and primaries on a single mat no problem. I love the handling too, it's my favorite sword in their lineup.

[Ben Coomer]

Well, I have an Agincourt and my wife has a Constable and we do a fair amount of cutting, so here are my observations.

Obviously, most of my cutting is with the Agincourt as my wife barely lets me hold her sword, but I've been doing it once a week for three years so I've wracked up a fair amount of experience. Most on milk jugs, but also on carpet tubes, tatami, and firm gourds.

Cutting on the COP is nearly a must, particularly with milk jugs. I think the angle of the last 1/5 is just too wide to cut through the initial resistance jugs present. Same goes for tubes. Gourds are rarely effected, so I am guess that cuts to fleshy, unarmored parts would also be pretty devastating. However, the tip does come into its own pretty quickly in that it seems to pierce things with hard stares. So while you have to really focus your cutting to get those impressive all the way through with the sword singing cuts, overall I doubt anyone would do well with a cut even in the tip portion.

The Constable is a very different sword, even within the same typology. Obviously, its shorter than the Agincourt and that changes things, for me, dramatically. It's somewhat more forgiving on cuts, but not that much. You're better off on the COP. The shorter grip changes the mechanics too. Its much harder to power through a cut with a bit less leverage. (The scent stopper pommel is harder for me to get good alignment too, but that's as much less practice with them than anything). Its got another "think and its run through" point, but it widens out much faster than the Agincourt so maybe getting deep into mail might be harder, but I have no practice at this so I can't say.

As is, I have found they are good cutters, in their own right. My more Type XVIII H/T is a easier cutter, as are the two Windlass XIV's we have (and of course the katana...), but I have an easier time cutting with the XVa's than the Type XII (ish?) European Sword (for whatever reason, I think I just don't like it as much so I don't put in the time as I should...).

As for the sharpness, I don't find that a paper cutter is all that necessary. It helps to get those aforementioned singing cuts, but technique is far more important.

[Hector A.]

[Luka Borscak]

I guess this thread is not the best place to discuss Oakeshott typology, but since we are talking about type XVa and Hector went there, I will go there too. Oakeshott typology is great for putting swords into families we know existed in a certain periods and areas, according to swords shape, fittings and cross section. What Oakeshott typology doesn't and can't tell you is how that sword cuts, how does it handles, where is its PoB, what are it's dimensions etc... Some swords of type XVa may well cut better than some XI swords although that is not what you would say on a first look. But if that XVa is made with good harmonic balance, good mass distribution, geometry is well executed, it will cut better than a XI which is to wobbly, with no distal taper, bad mass distribution and badly executed edges. Oakeshott typology doesn't bother with that so it's not the tool to use for measuring swords performance. But if someone tells you he found a sword with a type XI blade, type B pommel and type 3 crossguard, you'll know what he is talking about without seeing the sword and you'll know it's an late 11th to early 13th century sword, not a 15th or 16th century sword...

[Hector A.]

[Ben Coomer]

To be fair, the Agincourt was recently sharpened by Albion itself and its tip is noticeably less sharp than the rest even fresh, so I am not sure that even experts think that "paper cutting" is necessary to the entire length of a sword.

[Hector A.]

[Mike Ruhala]

I don't consider a blade to be fully sharp unless it can shave.

[Nat Lamb]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask for such things, but it sounds like there are some very knowledgeable people chiming in, so thought I would ask. I am very new to test cutting, and although I have found plenty of discussions about what level to sharpen to, I can't find many good "how to" sources on sharpening a European style blade that doesn't use a slack belt machine. If you guys know of a good guide, it would be great to share.

[John Young]

I am with nat on this. I would love to see a good how to...including a tool list.

[Timo Nieminen]

[Ben Coomer]

I have cut cloth and I'll stand by "paper cutter is unnecessary" from that.

Please note that I am not advocating anything most people would consider dull, but I find that paper cutting is a bit of a theatrical trick than useful standard. My standard is edge should be a black line under light.

And a finer blade is harder to maintain than less fine. Its thinner by definitions and therefore more likely to chip, which means more time polishing. My standards cut just fine and take little time to maintain. By contrast the katana I keep ultra sharp takes considerably more time to get back into shape.

It does sound like you enjoy the process of sharpening. More power to you. But that doesn't mean that your standard is a default or necessary.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I have an Albion Constable and it cuts very well, (surprisingly well and even when it's not that well sharpened), but it's got a fairly wide blade and a sharp profile taper. The newer, longer Albion XVa's, beautiful as they are, are much narrower. I think that might make a difference.

The reason I bought the Constable was that I went to an event where I had a chance to cut with about 20 swords, mostly Albions but also some Gus Trim's and some others, (I seem to remember "Angelfire" or "Angel" or something?) and a couple of Arms and Armor, back around 2005. We were cutting pool noodles, cardboard tubes, a few tatami, some plywood and I think some meat and bones toward the end. I remember expecting that all the XIIa, XIIIa, type XX etc. would be the best cutters (which was the conventional wisdom then) and was surprised that they weren't. The Constable was one of the best performers on all media after the Brescia Spadona and I couldn't afford that.

I still have the Constable and I love it, for the last 10 years it's always been the best cutter in our fencing group with all media when we do cutting days, and partly out of luck it's never gotten a ding in spite of years of abuse (especially during my extreme reckless ignorance in the first year I had it*). I've gotten rid of most of my other cheaper swords and I keep that one and a few antiques I'm slowly collecting.

More recently at HEMA events it seems like all the swords (mostly Albion but also some European) cut well but they tend to be extremely well sharpened. I cut tatami in a contest in Boston in 2012 or 2013 and I think it was an XVa we were cutting with though I'm not sure, anyway it cut well though I do remember I failed a zwerchau about half way through the contest (due to poor technique). The other guys who made it to the final had no problem carroting those tatami all different kinds of ways.

My $.02 is that XVa can cut really well, I do agree with others comments that cutting at the COP is a good idea, tip cutting doesn't work so well. If you used to cutting with the sword I think you'll tend to cut that way instinctively - I did before I even realized that was how it worked (only when I was trying to teach other people in my club to cut). I would love to get a longer sword, Albions are high on my list and I like the XVa type, but I've been hesitating to get one of the Talhoffer / Agincourt etc. family due to being unsure how they would cut. Cutting is what I mainly do with my swords other than just look at them so I want a pretty good cutter.


By the way speaking of pointy swords, has anyone here cut with the Principe or the Alexandria? Those look like beasts.

J

* just to cite one particularly egregious example of stupidity on my part, it survived cutting a two by four which instantly ruined my crappy Cold Steel messer

[Hector A.]

[Mark T]