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Max Ronnby




Location: Sweden, close to Gothenburg.
Joined: 04 Nov 2014

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue 04 Nov, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: "Espada Ropera"         Reply with quote

Hello everybody! I've been a lurker for a while, had the intention of joining and now I'm here with my first thread and post! Happy


I practice HEMA and I've just begun a reenactment career.
One day I decided to read up on the side sword, but got derailed and found myself on a wikipedia page regarding the type of sword called "espada ropera".
So, the page said their origin is 1450ish Spain, I've been looking around a lot(but my google fu failed me), are there any finds, paintings or the like of pre 16th century "espada ropera"?
Since I'm a 15th cenrury reenactor, it is important that it comes from that time, it'd be quite amusing to use this in my club's usual practice, see how it fares against blossfechten longsword, and I.33, heh.

I hope this thread is within regulations, thank you all on beforehand. Happy
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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Posts: 385

PostPosted: Tue 04 Nov, 2014 6:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From what I can tell "espada ropera" translates as "robe sword" ( I am assuming that ropera has the same etymological roots as the English word "robe", though I have no training in linguistics and exactly zero knowledge of Spanish). Assuming that this is the case, searching out "civilian dress sword" might yield better results. Take this with a grain of salt though.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 04 Nov, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe "Espada ropera" refers to swords that are early forms of rapier, here in the sense of a sword with the beginnings of a complex hilt rather than the classic, narrow bladed rapiers of the late 16th and 17th centuries.
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Nov, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a photo of Del Tin's DT5160, which they call an Espado Ropera. Early 16th century with a simple compound hilt.

In my opinion, not one of Del Tin's better efforts.



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Tomas B




Location: Ireland, Wales, Canada...I'm transient
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 05 Nov, 2014 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19588&view=next

You may need to search museum collections. The Wallace Collection has a good online datebase.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Nov, 2014 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In mid 15th century you don't have much complex hilts yet, maybe an occasional finger ring like on a famous Alexandria type XIX sword... tizona style hilt is also probably mid 15th century spanish... Other than that, you are safest with a simple type XVIII single hander with wheel pommel and curved cross, similar to Henri V sword...
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Wed 05 Nov, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Here is a photo of Del Tin's DT5160, which they call an Espado Ropera. Early 16th century with a simple compound hilt.

In my opinion, not one of Del Tin's better efforts.

I would surely take it as a gift Wink

Labeled that way no doubt because that is how Oakeshott listed it in his books. I have the Windlass version and it is actually a nice sword. The Del Tin fittings on a different blade might be a real treat.

Darkwood does a version of one that has had favor by some.

In looking at period images of Columbus's time, there are a few simple compound hilts shown but entirely secondary to other elements and inconclusive as to the blade types.

Cheers

GC



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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Nov, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Arms and Armor Serenissima may be one of the best espado ropera replicas.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Wed 05 Nov, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
The Arms and Armor Serenissima may be one of the best espado ropera replicas.

Yes, very nice. I am a closet rodelero.

Cheers

GC



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ca 1550
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 2:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
The Arms and Armor Serenissima may be one of the best espado ropera replicas.

Yes, very nice. I am a closet rodelero.

Cheers

GC
just as an aside, what manuscript is that rodelero image sourced from
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 3:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
The Arms and Armor Serenissima may be one of the best espado ropera replicas.

Yes, very nice. I am a closet rodelero.

Cheers

GC
just as an aside, what manuscript is that rodelero image sourced from

That was just pulled quickly from a blog, sorry. Marrozo

Rodelero protegiéndose del ataque de un arma enastada, según la ilustración de la edición de 1550 de "Opera nova de Achilee Marozzo Bolognese, mastro generale de larte de larmi".

http://ejercitodeflandes.blogspot.com/2012/06...elero.html (Spanish)

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Opera_Nova_(Achille_Marozzo)

Cheers

GC



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Max Ronnby




Location: Sweden, close to Gothenburg.
Joined: 04 Nov 2014

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "robe sword" thing is in the wikipedia article.


I'm abroad, with a weak Wifi on a buggy iPhone, that might be one of the reasons for my... Limited access to research. xD


Also, I'm a bit of a beginner, the Oakshott classifications haven't really stuck in my head, heh.


That collection of images is rather nice, are they 15th century?



It is quite important that the model, image, depictions, replica, relic, whatever is 15th century... So far I've only found "early 16th century" ones.

Also, how was the so called "espada ropeda" dated to mid 15th century? Mentioned in texts, are there manuals from that time?


Thank you all for the quick responses! Happy
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With the Oakeshott example, the description relates to the late 15th century. The term itself widely discarded in the early 16th century and only in later centuries revived to describe the early slim single hand swords. All the names really relate as much to the swordsmanship styles as the swords themselves.

Quote:
Since I'm a 15th cenrury reenactor, it is important that it comes from that time, it'd be quite amusing to use this in my club's usual practice, see how it fares against blossfechten longsword, and I.33, heh.


Basically, you are looking at using a longer slim single hand sword against the other weapons systems. Essentially, evolution of 1.33 to say Silver comparing fighting on an uneven level. Silver's two hand and single hand sword of the same blade length. There is a lot of single hand play in Fiore, the differences again in your projection a longsword vs a lighter single hand sword. A lot of the basic principles remain the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFXoaQYb_j4

Cheers

GC
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