A definition for "doubled mail" -- myArmoury.com

Ahmad Tabari · Posted: Sat 25 Oct, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: A definition for "doubled mail"

Hello all. I think I may have found a definition for the elusive "doubled mail" that many have wondered about. Keep in mind that this is a 14th century Arab definition and may not necessarily apply to what Latin sources referred to.

I found the definition in the 6th volume of Nihayat al-Arb by al-Nuwairi (a 14th century Egyptian historian). It is contained in a section of his book which discusses mail and the various ways it was referred to by contemporaries and predecessors. The following quote is my translation from the original Arabic definition:

"Doubled [mail] refers to that which is woven two rings by two rings"

Thus it seems to imply that the doubled mail we often wondered about is basically mail weave using double the amount of rings like king's mail.

Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott · Posted: Sat 25 Oct, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject:

Fascinating.
Thanks Ahmad Happy

Dan Howard · Posted: Sat 25 Oct, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject:

Does the text describe other types of mail?

Mart Shearer · Posted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject:

Like Dan, I would also be interested in seeing all the varieties described. From a bit of research, it seems the work dates to c. 1315-1332.

There are a number of varieties of mail described in European sources, many of which are not so explicit concerning the difference --tournament mail being one example.

Ahmad Tabari · Posted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject:

Sorry for the late reply.

I am afraid doubled mail is the only thing al-Nuwairi mentions regarding mail woven in a different pattern. He mostly focuses on the different technical terms used for mail shirts. For instance he says that “sabigha” refers to a wide or spacious mail coat. “Dulamisun” is the adjective used to refer to very shiny mail. “Dikhasun” refers to a mail coat with “tightly/closely woven rings”. “Dhailatun” is the adjective describing a mail coat with a long skirt. “Sabiriyya” refers to mail with a light weave or using light rings. And “Sukkun” means mail with small rings.

Eric S

Dan Howard · Posted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject:

That doesn't really help unless the same weave is found in a Middle Eastern context. We know that the Japanese used a lot of weaves that nobody else used. European 6-in-1 and 8-in 2 would also qualify. Does anyone know of any examples of Turko-Persian mail that matches al-Nuwairi's description?

Dan Howard

Dan Howard · Posted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 9:12 pm Post subject:

The Persian writer, Shahidi, wrote Taziyeh va Tazieyekhani in the same century (1380), and in it he distinguishes between two different kinds of mail. The first one was called zereh davudi ("davudi style mail") or zereh mikh gerd ("mail with rounded rivets"), and the second type was called zereh mamuli ("common mail").

Ahmad Tabari

Ahmad Tabari · Posted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 10:40 pm Post subject:

With regards to extant mail matching the description, I believe I might have come across a couple of 6 in 1 patterns used for a stiffened collar. Though I am not sure if this would match his description and I dont know of any full middle eastern shirts using ta doubled construction.

Stephen Curtin · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 3:59 am Post subject:

Thanks for sharing this Ahmad. So this seems to narrow theories about double mail down to weaves denser than the standard 4 in 1.

Dan Howard · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 4:56 am Post subject:

William P · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:13 am Post subject:

Stephen Curtin · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:14 am Post subject:

Dan Howard · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:24 am Post subject:

Stephen Curtin · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:40 am Post subject:

William P · Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:50 am Post subject:

I just thought that to be that close together that it'd be using a denser weave like, 6 in 1 or 8-2 maille or something, that's pretty much all i thought

i didnt notice the links being that different in seize although with the massive difference in density bbetween the two sections, it is harder to check.