17c. rapiers with very simple hilts -- myArmoury.com

Radovan Geist

When browsing through items in one of the last HH auctions, I have stumbled upon one interesting German rapier. It has an extremely simple hilt - just a knuckle-bow with a guard plate, which is something one would rather expect on a dagger, not rapier.
Of course, there are cavalry swords and "side-swords" from that period, with similarly simple designs, but I believe this one is none of them (blade is rather for thrusting, not cutting). So far I have only heard of and seen two other similar simple forms - cross-hilted swords popular in England around that period (http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_engswords.html) and some crab-hilted swords from Italy, which had only a side-ring, just like on a parrying dagger. (plus "pillow swords" which came somewhat later).
Of course, this particular rapier could be a composite piece put together from different parts much later by "conservators" (but it´s not indicated in the description, even though the weapon has been modified at some later stage - re. shortened blade), or just an odd, unique piece. What do you think? Have you seen similar rapiers elsewhere? I´m interested in weapons intended mainly for thrusting, from 1590s-1610s, with very simple hilt designs. Thanks in advance for any further info.

Mark Griffin · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 3:21 am Post subject:

Well I'm no expert but something doesn't look right there, proportions are very out. I think you are right about a dagger guard on a sword blade. The guard is just too light for anyone to pick it up and say 'ooh yes, this is what I want as my primary defense' imho.

But you never know what parallels will turn up...

Mark Griffin · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 3:34 am Post subject:

Having said that, the knuckle bow is big for a dagger, its a very interesting conundrum.

Radovan Geist · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 8:01 am Post subject:

you are right, only rarely one´d see daggers with such knuckle-bow. Also, the "decoration" on the guard plate and the pommel looks very rude, compared to chiseled terminals on crossguard, the spiral handle with wire grip & turkheads, and the blade with pierced fullers... hm. I´m more and more inclined to believe that it is a kind of modified / composite piece...

Sam Barris · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:45 am Post subject:

I'm also leaning towards composite. The comparative quality level of the various bits is too extreme to ignore, and the pommel looks suspiciously like it was taken from the standard issue weapon of the Munich town guard, of which there are many originals in circulation.

Julian Reynolds · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:56 am Post subject:

A Victorian 'Frankenstein' if ever I saw one......

Julian

Vincent Le Chevalier · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject:

I don't know if it's composite or not, but there is an interesting detail: it seems to me that the guard and handle were meant to be part of a case of rapiers like this one. Look how the quillons and handle are flattened on one side...

Regards,

Don Stanko · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject:

I have seen sword hilts like that one and many of them were Victorian. The decorations to the shell guard and pommel are quite simple and crude. Notice that the inside of the guard is flat and undecorated? This was typical for display swords, it would allow them to neatly hang upon a wall or plaque. The blade, probably real, is definitely much nicer than the rest of the sword.

Ben Coomer · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 10:02 pm Post subject:

I think it's a composite meant for a wall. The crude decorations on the Turk's Head are only on the plate side and I wouldn't find it likely that would show up on only one side. Particularly as they are very crude marks to begin with and would be simple to make it match the other side.

Anders Backlund · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 4:05 am Post subject:

There are some similar swords in the albums, but unfortunately not much information to go by. Compare:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=99
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=100
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=199
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=198

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 7:04 am Post subject:

Good examples here: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_engswords.html

Radovan Geist · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 10:52 pm Post subject:

thank you all for your inputs.
Sean: yes I know that feature article, I think I´ve linked it in the first post. English rapiers / back-swords (terminology is, as usually, somewhat confusing here and there are probably no clear boundaries - at least as far as I know) are indeed very interesting. Cross-hilted swords which enjoyed their brief popularity at the beginning of the 17th c. have extremely simple hilt design.
Anders: thank you also. The first sword you have linked to looks to me as something which is sometimesreferred to as Steierisches Schwert / Styrian sword. The other one is similar to some "riding swords" - but I dont see whether it has a thumb-ring on the obverse side. In both cases the difference to the one I posted is, I think, the blade. They have quite wide, cutting blades.
Vincent - an interesting possibility. I was also thinking about it, but it seems that both pommel and the handle have rather a "flat lenticular" cross-section, not a half-ellipse I´d expect in a "case of rapiers".
So most probably it´d be a composite creation from some older parts, botched together to hang on a wall... Huh, not a very nice verdict Happy

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 06 Mar, 2014 6:32 am Post subject:

Sorry for the re-link! I missed that part of your original post. FWIW, I also believe that HH sword to be a composite due to the mismatched quality of blade and hilt, and the condition of the grip.

Radovan Geist · Posted: Wed 01 Apr, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject:

My interest in 17c swords/rapiers with very simple hilts has been again saturated in the last HH auction:) This, again, is an interesting combination of a typical ring-hilt seen usually on daggers, and a shortish wider blade you´d expect on cut-and-thrust swords: http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm70...at70_a.txt

Nothing in the description indicates that it´d be a composite piece, but then, you never know...