[Jack McGregor Lynn]

Another question about a deal that looks to good to be true. This I know a bit less about. www.Wholesalearmor.com is selling a german sallet that at least looks quite nice. It's 16 gauge steel but it says in big letters NOT SCA LEGAL. Why wouldn't it be? What type of protection will it give me? I would really like to know. Also, this helm looks quit different from what I have come to recognize as fairly standard sallet designs. Is it historically accurate? I actually prefer the way this helm looks to the more traditional designs but I also value accuracy.

[Nate C.]

Greetings,

I'm not sure as to the accuracy of this helmet, but I think helmets of this type aren't called sallets. I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that this would be more of an armet-ish (closed helm) design. Take a look in the albums here for some good pictures of period armor. As for the SCA, safety is a big deal and I think that they have certain requirements for helm with hinged face protection. Latches especially. Just my 2 cents.

[Nathan Robinson]

Is this the helm you're referring to? It's much easier for us to answer questions if we don't have to chase down the info.

[Anders Lindkvist]

The prices are very cheap, from riveted maile to the churburgarmour.

Does anyone knows anything about the quality of these goods? Have any one bought things from this company?

/Anders

[Chad Arnow]

That particular helm is referred to as a bellows visor sallet. It seems to have both sallet and close helm characteristics.

[Brian W. Rainey]

From looking at the site, I have yet to see a piece that is accurate in shape/style. So, to answer your question, no it is not accurate.

These are Indian made pieces, if my guess is correct. I have seen these same pieces on many other sites and I believe they all come from the same Indian wholesaler/manufacturer.

The hat in question can be described as a sallet with bellows visor. Unfortunately, it is a very poor execution of one.

I would not consider these to be wearable. However they are decent mantle pieces if you want inaccurate and cheap crap sitting on your mantle.

I would surmise that these are listed as not being SCA legal because thy aren't. 16ga mild steel is VERY thin to use for SCA combat and who knows if they are actually 16ga.... 16ga sheet steel has a pretty signficant margin of error. Having seen more than my share of these crappy, inaccurate and pathetic excuses for historic armour, my guess is that these are more likely around 17ga. I also believe SCA "regulations" to require a specific sized gap at the eyes and other construction requirements.

In addition, I doubt they would actually fit a human head anyway... best to shop elsewhere.

[Allan Senefelder]

It is a bellowsed visored sallet(so called due to the ridges and lows in between on the visor which resmble the leather in between the wood top and bottom on a bellows) and was used from the last decade of the 15th century through the first few decades of the 16th . Nathan posted a very fine Spanish example earlier this month . I would guess that the reason its not Scadian legal is the opening of the vision slot(occularum) is probably to wide . While the tendency with Scadian armour is to Jagdapanzer up with 12 gauge as far as I can remember 16 gauge was still the minimum . Might have changed since the last time I saw any rules though .

[Brian W. Rainey]

Allan,


If you are interested, J.G. Mann wrote an excellent piece on "Notes on the Armour of the Maximillian Period and the Italian Wars". It was published in the Journal of the Society of Antiquaries of London.

While the original is difficult to find, Trotman published a number of articles by J.G. Mann in Studies of European Armour (third item down on the catalogue page, M003). While somewhat costly, it is an excellent reprint and I suggest it as a cornerstone work in the study of armour.

Articles republished in the book:

- Notes on the Armour of the Maximillian Period and the Italian Wars.
- The Sanctuary of the Madonna delle Grazie with notes on the evolution of Italian armour of the 15th century.
- Notes on the amrour worn in Spain from the tenth to the 15th century.
- Notes on the evolution of plate armour in Germany in the fourteenth and fifteenth century.
- A further account of the armour preserved in the sancutary of the Madonna delle Grazie near Mantua.

[Chad Arnow]

[Allan Senefelder]

Brian , thanks for the heads up .I'll go hunting for it this afternoon. We've got a Maximillian right leg in our collection that we posted pics of here last month if you want to dig around and take a look at it .

[Brian W. Rainey]

[Patrick Kelly]

That's a beautiful helmet Brian, thanks. That style has always been one of my favorites.

When comparing these two photographs what we see is a prime example of the disparity of two different work philosophies.

The helmet in Brian's photo has obviously been made by someone who has taken the time to do hands-on research and study involving existing antique specimens. On the other hand, the first photo shows a helmet that was probably made by trying to copy a photo from a book. The results of either method should be obvious.

I'm much more interested in hearing if anyone has had experience with the flat rivetted mail shirt priced at $299.00.

Has anyone actually purchased anything from this company?

[Brian W. Rainey]

Okay, here is a picture that gives some proportional evidence to the helm. While ie probably COULD be worn for SCA combat with a tall gorget... I WOULD not wear for such a purpose... however, my head won't be in the helm, so it is your call.



Perhaps someone over here has had some dealings with them:

www.armourarchive.org
www.arador.com

Both of these organizations are made up of a primarily SCA audience.

[Allan Senefelder]

One of Toms helmets of this form (could be this one ) was up on e-bay back in October and I was admiring its lines . Tom is a very talented guy with 'bout the best eye for maximising space usage i've ever seen(if you go to Tom's sight he has a tour of his shop and the whole thing is in the one car garage of a split level ranch. He's used ever inch of space and the whole thing's geared twords efficiency ) .
I've seen the Wholesale Armour helm in person(got put on a pole and used for target practice at ARMa interenational event last summer) . It looks like something from The Rocketier or Sky Captian . The lines bare no semblence to
the originals or Tom's . More like a cylinder with a visor , something like a Cylon Helmet from Battle Star Galactica . It falls under the heading of what Brian Price called medievalesque. More for decoration to convey an atmosphere or be worn for a Halloween costume than to "used".

[Jack McGregor Lynn]

Thanks, guys. Ya, the helms price seemed a tad bit cheap. As for accuracy I'd disagree with the general consensus and say that the helm, where not exactly like historical counterparts, is within armorers license in its degree of variation. I really don't care that much about SCA regs per se (not being a member), but I wanted to know if the SCA marshals had noticed a problem that I had missed (unrolled edges for example). I was wondering if this helm would holp up to live steel. I'm guessing not, but if anyone has any Information to the contrary I would be more than happy to hear it. A cheap live steel helm would be nice.....

[Jeff Johnson]

I saw the original of this one a couple of weeks ago - it's in the Wallace collection, catalog number A72. I'm looking at the catalog now and it's not a very good copy.

Plus, I have seen this copy (or one very like it) and it's pretty shoddy construction...

[Brian W. Rainey]

[Konstantin Tsvetkov]

I am not an expert, just want to share my point of view, but I don't think that we have enough artefacts survived to judge for accuracy any of medieval weapon or armour reproduction, and most of those available are court or parade items. I am sure, that as long as edged and shock weapons dominated on the battlefields, soldiers used whatever they could get of blades and armour, weapons are always in short supply (remember Mosin Nagant rifles in Vietnam and Lee Enfild or even black powders in Afganistan in the second half of last century) and some foot soldier could possibly wear a norman helmet in 1400, who knows. Considering the cost of armour and blades, I don't think that all of any european king's men could afford such a nice and elaborated harness and weapon as examples we could usually find in museums. I think a simple steel spheric helmet was a most common for some 300-400 years. As for style and shape, all of you know, period pictures are not reliable, they just give an idea, and certainly, not all styles and shapes were documented. Really interesting are the pictures of medieval costumes and armour, made in 17-19 centuries, they just had much more material to explore, than we have after Europe was twice devastated by two WW. I have found several interesting and quite unusual pictures of european men-at-arms and jousters in a reprint of such a catalogue. Same for the construction of swords and weapons. Remember the swords with pommels made in a shape of morgenschtern, depicted in Codex Wallerstein part concerning combat in harness.
My point is, that any of modern armourers or sword makers can feel being accurate, producing an effective replica weapon, using period tools and his imagination and commonsense, I mean, those modern "fantasy" blades and armours are out of discussion.
One interesting site I recently found: www.bestarmour.com. There you can find a couple of helmet, looking like the helmet in question.
Please,excuse my bad English and thanks to myArmoury for the SpellCheck facility, it was really helpful.

[Mark Mattimore]

[Kel Rekuta]