Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. This site requires ongoing funding and your donations are crucial to our future.
Last 10 Donors: Neil Eddiford, Chad Arnow, Jean Thibodeau, Robert Morgan, Adam Rose, Jerry Otahal, Michael P. Smith, Mikko Kuusirati, Eric Bergeron, Daniel Staberg (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Watch this: Rapier Time (photo-intensive) Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2004 4:10 pm    Post subject: Watch this: Rapier Time (photo-intensive)         Reply with quote

This is a pretty interesting example of the craftsmanship and artistry that was not only possible in the early 17th century, but also a glimpse into the type of ornamentation that was valued then.

This example is a rapier and accompanying dagger that both feature a working clock in their pommels!

I'm hoping there are some German members out there that would be willing to translate the German descriptive text or a person who's versed in clocks and watches to shed insight on that element.

Rapier and Dagger, Saxony, 1610





Click any photograph to see the higher-resolution detailed version

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Alex Yeoh





Joined: 01 Nov 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2004 7:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what an extraordinary piece, I've never seen anything like it.

I see what appears to be a balance wheel, but without a balance spring (3rd pic, circular wheel on the left), and without a pallet fork

the circular wheel at the bottom appears to be the main spring, and appears to be wound by a crown which I'm guessing is the knob at the top of the pommel, which turns the top-most wheel.

I would guess that this sort of watch only told time by the hour, without displaying minutes or seconds because it was too inaccurate to do so.

The wheel at the top right is a bit of a mystery, since theres a few merged teeth at the top, which would seem to get stuck in the top-most wheel. Usually with date mechanisms, teeth would be MISSING, not merged, but I definitely know this watch does not have any complications whatsoever. Perhaps the merged teeth are to stop the winding beyond a certain point? Usually hand-wound watches are not stopped by this method.

this predates anything I'm familiar with, so these are just guesses. Any pics of the watch face?

"Only a fool would go after the singing sword!" - Bugs Bunny
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2004 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, nifty artifacts. I guess all that clockwork is to ensure that you're always on time for your duels...

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: NY, NY
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Reading list: 32 books

Posts: 419

PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are many of the dagger blade types from Saxony in that time period somewhat similar to each other? Because the few that I've seen or seen photos of have looked similar and IMHO gorgeous in their lines.

Alright, I have to admit that clockwork is pretty beautiful and fascinating on its own, but I probably would have never thought to combine it with swords - neat (though funky) idea! The detail work here appears brilliant, even if the sword mounts as a whole don't appeal to my tastes...


Last edited by Gabriel Lebec on Mon 08 Nov, 2004 1:09 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Alina Boyden





Joined: 19 Apr 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2004 12:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is amazing how much of that description I can understand having only had 6 weeks of german! That is an amazingly ornate sword. I would never have though to stick eine Uhr in den Knaufen. Wink
View user's profile
Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 411

PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2004 1:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Laughing Out Loud That are so very german all over it, super schön uhrwerk,
good reason to have the sword with you out Big Grin

Eek! when i read it with my octoberfest german, there are a bell in that sword pommel to, nice Happy


Last edited by Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom on Mon 08 Nov, 2004 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
James A. Vargscarr




Location: Englishman living in Canada
Joined: 17 Oct 2004

Posts: 92

PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2004 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bizarre. It's like a classy precursor to those hiking boots one sees with a compass in the heel! I wonder how much use the sword saw, and whether the clockwork was easily damaged through the shocks incurred when fencing...

You know, the more I look at it, the less odd it seems. And, as has been noted by others, the quality of the craftsmanship is undeniable. It would certainly provide a talking point for a budding 17th Century socialite.

"Oh this? Why, it's my pommel watch of course. All of the stylish gentlemen are wearing them..."
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Yeoh wrote:
I would guess that this sort of watch only told time by the hour, without displaying minutes or seconds because it was too inaccurate to do so.

I was able to verify that many watches of this period only had an hour hand.

I wish I had a photo of the faces of these two watches. But I don't.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Alina Boyden





Joined: 19 Apr 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Alex Yeoh wrote:
I would guess that this sort of watch only told time by the hour, without displaying minutes or seconds because it was too inaccurate to do so.

I was able to verify that many watches of this period only had an hour hand.

I wish I had a photo of the faces of these two watches. But I don't.


Well the watchmaker is Tobias Reichel if my German hasn't totally failed me. You might try looking his name up.
View user's profile
Mathias B.




Location: Franconia, Germany
Joined: 26 May 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Watch this: Rapier Time (photo-intensive)         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:


I'm hoping there are some German members out there that would be willing to translate the German descriptive text or a person who's versed in clocks and watches to shed insight on that element.
]

I'll try to translate if I can find the time...

Otium et reges prius et beatas perdidit urbes
(Gaius Valerius Catullus)
View user's profile Send private message
David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I showed this to a few friends. After the "Oooh"s and "Ah"s were done, somebody said "Cool! You could put a frag-counter in your sword!" Laughing Out Loud

I think I'm showing my age. Cool
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Yeoh wrote:
Any pics of the watch face?

I just realized that the first photo shows the watch face on the dagger pommel!

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 411

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 1:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Alex Yeoh wrote:
Any pics of the watch face?

I just realized that the first photo shows the watch face on the dagger pommel!


The first photo also shows the watch face on the swords pommel,
and if you look close through rear lid face on second photo so can you see a bronze or brass bell to,
that one who dolphin shape hithammer will hit, on picture 3 can you see a small pice of it (bell) inside the lid. Happy

Watch close! Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Kenneth Enroth




Location: Finland
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 2:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps the rapier shows the hour and the dagger shows the minute?
View user's profile Send private message
Mathias B.




Location: Franconia, Germany
Joined: 26 May 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So here is part one (the part about the Rapier):
Quote:
182 a
Rapier and dagger, combined with a clock in the pommels, hilt is a work from Dresden.
The clocks are made by court-watchmaker Tobias Reichel, Christmas-present by duke Johann Georg to his brother, Kurfürst Christian II of Saxony, 1610


Rapier: blade with lenticular cross-section, slightly hollow-ground on both sides in the upper third, so called “Weihekreuze” (consecration/dedication crosses) stamped in there; indistinct smith’s mark on both sides of the ricasso.
The hilt is made of gilded brass, all parts are engraved richly with intricate floral ornaments, S-shaped crossguard, (…),

Vertically profiled wooden grip with wire-wrap of gilded copper with two twisted and two straight wires; two turk’s heads of the same material.
Flat pommel in form of a pine-cone (?) with a screwed-on spherical button. In the pommel: a clock with an hour-hand; on the front of the pommel: an engraved silver clock-face with a diameter of 30 mm; two kinds of digits can be found: on the outer circle roman digits: I-XII, on the inner circle Arabic digits: 13-24. Multiply profiled hour-hand made of blued iron (the hour-hand has been replaced). The clock-face is protected by a convex filigree lid. A full hour is indicated by s stroke on a flat steel bell. The clapper has the form of a dolphin.
(Here are quite a few technical terms from watch making which I can’t translate, it’s about details of the construction of the clock)

The rear lid is perforated with floral ornaments as a sound-hole. The sides of the pommel show engraved floral ornaments; in the middle of the back plate: filigree floral ornaments.

Overall length: 111 cm, blade length: 94 cm, breadth of blade at the ricasso: 2,8 cm, weight: 1020 g

Dimensions of the clock: length (without the button): 60 mm, breadth: 51 mm, height: 30 mm

Historical Museum of Dresden, Inv. Nr. VI 434

Otium et reges prius et beatas perdidit urbes
(Gaius Valerius Catullus)
View user's profile Send private message
Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Tue 07 Dec, 2004 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I realise this is extremely late but some words I couldn't translate and a very few others seem to contradict the pics. I have at last given up and will post what I have.

182b Dagger with Clock
Blade with rhomboidal cross-section; central ridge reaching nearly to the point; decorative, pierced fuller, a small area stamped with the initials <<W.B.>>Brass vessel, gilded and richly engraved. S-shaped quillons with oval parrying ring. Longitudinally shaped wooden grip with one smooth band alternating for every two of twisted gilt and copper wire terminating in two turk's-heads.
The oval pommel with screw shaped small pommel opposite/contrary to the clock; on the front of the clock is a gilded brass face with a tempered, blued, and complex shaped hour hand; the dial has a ring with the roman numerals I-XII; constant power transfer from the spring through the Stackfreed is achieved, Unrast with adjustable pins, the piece over the Ruckplatine(probably backplate) is stamped with the mark of Tobias Reichel. Front and back are vaulted through with a hinged cover of gilded brass. The cover is engraved with a bird and vines.
Overall length: 31.5cm, Blade length: 20cm, Blade width at false edge: 1.7cm, Weight: 200g
Measurements of the clock: Height: 27mm, Width: 23.5mm, Depth: 20mm
Dagger sheath: wood with black leather wrap; the gilded brass rechtige(this word generally means right or correct but I don't understand its place in this sentence) locket on the front of which are engraved vines and a bird beating its wings. Vines are also engraved on the back with Trageose. The chape is a downward pointing cone of gilded brass with spherical point engraved with a bird, an owl, and two vines.

The rest seems to be inventory information which I began to translate but then decided wasn't relevant to the set or of interest to anyone.[/i]
View user's profile Send private message
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

PostPosted: Tue 07 Dec, 2004 8:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not much of a rapier guy, but I need one of those to go with my watch cuff-links Big Grin

That is pretty interesting. Thanks for the pictures, translation, and intersting discussion.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 07 Dec, 2004 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you so much, Allen. That adds a lot.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mathias B.




Location: Franconia, Germany
Joined: 26 May 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
I realise this is extremely late but some words I couldn't translate and a very few others seem to contradict the pics. I have at last given up and will post what I have.

182b Dagger with Clock
Blade with rhomboidal cross-section; central ridge reaching nearly to the point; decorative, pierced fuller, a small area stamped with the initials <<W.B.>>Brass vessel, gilded and richly engraved. S-shaped quillons with oval parrying ring. Longitudinally shaped wooden grip with one smooth band alternating for every two of twisted gilt and copper wire terminating in two turk's-heads.
The oval pommel with screw shaped small pommel opposite/contrary to the clock; on the front of the clock is a gilded brass face with a tempered, blued, and complex shaped hour hand; the dial has a ring with the roman numerals I-XII; constant power transfer from the spring through the Stackfreed is achieved, Unrast with adjustable pins, the piece over the Ruckplatine(probably backplate) is stamped with the mark of Tobias Reichel. Front and back are vaulted through with a hinged cover of gilded brass. The cover is engraved with a bird and vines.
Overall length: 31.5cm, Blade length: 20cm, Blade width at false edge: 1.7cm, Weight: 200g
Measurements of the clock: Height: 27mm, Width: 23.5mm, Depth: 20mm
Dagger sheath: wood with black leather wrap; the gilded brass rechtige(this word generally means right or correct but I don't understand its place in this sentence) locket on the front of which are engraved vines and a bird beating its wings. Vines are also engraved on the back with Trageose. The chape is a downward pointing cone of gilded brass with spherical point engraved with a bird, an owl, and two vines.

The rest seems to be inventory information which I began to translate but then decided wasn't relevant to the set or of interest to anyone.


Very good translation, Allen

Just a few quick annotations:
The word "rechtige" you wrote reads "rechteckige" in the original text and means "rectangular", "Trageöse" means "carrying loop", "Rückplatine" does mean "backplate", I don't know the English words for the other expressions you marked either (I don't even know them in German Blush )

Otium et reges prius et beatas perdidit urbes
(Gaius Valerius Catullus)
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan, 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dug up some more photos of the inner mechanisms and watch faces of these unique pieces:



Click any photograph to see the higher-resolution detailed version

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Watch this: Rapier Time (photo-intensive)
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum